Trafford area 11+ and tutoring

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Hello mums,

I was recently told by someone that every parent in trafford tutors their children with the aim of getting them into the local grammar schools. Whilst not 'every' parent will do it, Is this the case? Do even the children who get sent to the local private schools get tutored too generally? I'm thinking of sending my children to the local private schools with the understanding that they might prepare them better for the 11+ exams (as opposed to tutoring them intensively in the run up).....
The person who told me about the tutoring basically said, there is no advantage to paying for private schools to get into the grammar schools as everyone tutors anyway and the local schools are excellent..... Any thought highly appreciated. Thank you

winespider...I've two boys at Oldfield Brow (both in the juniors now), great school.

Don't worry about the social mix, the kids are all lovely and very caring/nurturing to each other in the main. The head is a star, and the teachers are great and highly motivated. There are some very well-to-do parents too, so you won't feel out of place ;)

The only question mark (for me) is that due to the fact the school is in the process of doubling in size, I don't know whether it'll lose the 'personal' touch it has at the moment (the boys know the name of nearly every child at the school it seems, right down to the nursery).

Phone the school, and ask to be taken on a tour during school hours. You should get a good 'feel' for the school.

Wow, this thread certainly is an eye opener. I was considering the Trafford Grammars for my DCs and this thread has completely put me off. I knew it would be competitive, but not to this extent! We are over in the Manchester border at the moment and DCs go to a local state school and we were considering moving to Trafford in a few years to be within catchment, but I don't think i want my DCs to be playing this game. Me and DH both went to highly selective state grammars in Surrey and Kent and we were never tutored....if you were bright you got in. Maybe things have changed even in those grammars now, who knows.
No wonder the trafford grammars get amazing results if this is how they choose the entrants....

Actually I think it would be fairer if there was no catchment for the grammars and simply who gets the best results gets in. At the moment, only the rich can afford to send their kids to the grammars as the property prices are so high within the catchment areas. I think Grammars were originally set up to provide a good education for everybody regardless of social status but the way it is now is totally against that idea.

SaveTheMockingBird, it's worth pointing out that the Sale/Timperley/Alty non-selective schools are all good too, so it's a no-lose game for the local kids really. I think the parents (at least, some of them!) tend to get more obsessed about the grammar schools than the kids or the teachers.

Also, the catchment areas for all the trafford grammar schools are pretty large, and include all sorts of housing options. If you want a house that's a stone's throw from Alty boys or Alty girls, you'll pay ridiculous amounts, but you can get plenty of 3 bed housing in W14 for sub-£200k.

Thank you for your thoughts, doodle , knackster , pregnant and fletcher.

Goodness knows what it will be like by the time my DC hit secondary age. We moved to altrincham because we liked the area, it's good for commuting and we have friends here. We got lucky with buying our house when we did - children were not even on the agenda back then.

I hope everyone gets the outcomes they hope for.

I have children at a local primary school. I think if you live within catchment for Altrincham C of E, it is definitely worth applying - I'm almost sure that only a % of the places go to church go-ers.

Bowdon C of E and Bollin both outstanding - Bowdon C of E has just gone to a 3 class intake but if you live close to Altrincham C of E, I doubt whether you'll be in catchment for it. You might be in catchment for Bollin though depending on where you go. I don't know Oldfield Brow.

I think some of the comments here are unfair - if you'd have been in Altrincham on Saturday, you'd have realised how manic it is - everywhere was gridlocked with parents shipping in children to sit the exam. Children in school uniform from schools over 20 miles away. So whilst people are making disingenuous comments about parents in Trafford making their children nervous wrecks, what about the parents who are making them commute for what must be an hour each way every day?!

I think the suggestion to ignore the results of schools in Trafford is also quite sweeping.

I agree that its a huge area too - not everyone in Trafford is a millionaire I should be so lucky

Also, I went to one of the local grammar schools 30 years ago. I imagine it was the same as Kent or Surrey or wherever - there was just one exam (the 11+), you didn't know when it would be (and neither did the parents), you turned up at school one day and the desks were in rows. There was no pressure, it was just a test. If you passed, you got a place, if you didn't you went to the other local school. If you were clever and rich, you went to one of the private schools.

Everyone walked to school. There was no one who didn't live within walking distance. No-one in my year came from a private school, everyone came from the local primaries. No-one came from outside of the area, no one moved to the area or joined my primary school in 3rd year juniors (as it was) just so they'd be eligible for a place. It was just the local school. No tutoring, no pressure.

Do I wish it was still like that? Absolutely.

Mandy, I saw the carnage in Alty at the weekend, it was much the same at Sale on Monday (1/4 mile queues to get in). One of DD's classmates had to leave partway through the exam as he was too upset to finish, and apparently one section asked the children to answer 35 questions in 6 minutes!
A lot of the people who drove in weren't actually coming from that far away, I know several parents who drove in less than a mile because "it's too far for DC to walk". If I had to put in order "old enough to walk a mile" and "old enough to sit multiple exams of several hours each", I know which way round I'd put them. We walked, and had a lovely chat on the way there and the way back.
DD's exams are all done now, we had pie for dinner to celebrate.
Results in a month, then school applications. It's a waiting game now, but at least DD's classmates' parents are now being honest about how much they tutored their DCs (a lot! Some since Y3)

Well said mockingbird at the end. Mandy I know some of the comments are generalisations but people have been quite honest about sharing their experiences I think ?

Sorry I meant to add to mockingbird that it's not just house prices, it's the costs of moving house to Trafford (lots do it) and then tutoring from year 3 (not uncommon) etc especially for larger families.

Yes, but I wonder how many people actually have children locally or its a case of 'a friend of a friend told me' .

I think I was quite upfront, I think I said earlier on that I have DC in Year 5 at one of the local schools and everyone who is putting their child in for the exams next year (that I know well enough to speak to about it) is intending to tutor. But that's probably about 50-60% of the year group. There are quite a few families that aren't going down that road. And to write off amazing results (one local school was named the 2nd best primary school in the whole country last year) on the basis of "just because everyone is tutored" is disingenuous. It no doubt has an influence, of course it does, but implying its the only reason that results are so good is not right either.

And genuinely hand on heart I can say that no-one in my child's year (unless the parents and the child are lying) has started with a tutor earlier than this year (i.e. with a year to go). I've never heard of anyone being tutored in Year 4 nevermind Year 3!! There are a couple of children who have gone to Kumon but nothing over and above that.

In fact, the tutor we're using (actually start in a couple of weeks - think the tutors have a couple of weeks off and then start again) won't take children earlier than Year 5. She says if they need more tutoring than a year, they shouldn't be going to grammar school!

Actually mockingbird, grammar schools were always local schools. Its never been about the cleverest children regardless of where they live, its been about providing education to the most able local children.

And as theknackster says, saying only the rich can send their children to grammar is not right either!

Glad you're through it InMySpareTime - good luck for the results

My reading of the thread was that people were being honest about their own direct experience. Bowden CofE was one that was scored as one of the best schools - no one is saying it's not a great school it's just that there is no acknowledgement of the extra tutoring that goes on in the back ground

I understand that, I know that school very well. The point I was trying to make is that about 50-60% of the children are tutored for 11-12 months in Year 5. How much impact does that have on the SATS they take in Year 6 (which determine the results/ league tables)? How does anyone know whether the children wouldn't have attained the same scores without tutoring? The tutoring is really about familiarisation with the type of questions they ask in the entrance exams (VR, Maths and NVR). That's quite different from the SATS (they're certainly not asking NVR questions in the SATS tests ). So like I said, it will have an impact but you can't quantify that.

Very interesting thread. Great to get an insight into all this. I mentioned to a friend today that I ultimately wanted my dc to go to grammar school thinking UGS if it's any good in many years time. Dc1 still in preschool. She was but I thought everyone living in Trafford aspired to grammar education?

I know lots of people in hale / alty with dc starting reception this sept and the focus on alty boys has come up already (along with Oxbridge aspirations, for just turned 4yos)

For what it's worth (not a lot!) my view on 'what a kid needs' to prepare for the 11+:

• Familiarisation with the test format (in particular, how the answer sheets are structured)
• Familiarisation with the test question types (NVR/VR/Maths/Comprehension/Cloze)
• Feel for the speed at which questions must be answered
• 'Exam technique' - skipping questions that are taking too long to answer, checking answers with any spare time at the end, eliminating wrong answers, etc etc
• As large a vocabulary as possible
• Help with the maths curriculum that will be tested (particularly algebra if our primary school is anything to go by)

All bar the last one are things that can be done at home, without a tutor, if your child is ok with taking constructive criticism from the parent. Depending on the parent's maths knowledge, the last one may not need a tutor either.

And, of course, your child needs to have the right sort of talents that the grammars are sieving the cohort for - pattern spotting, etc. Not much a tutor can do about that if its missing - you're into prep school drilling territory.

So - tutors aren't critical, but can be useful (our one was for us, the eldest is not the sort of kid who takes parental feedback in a positive manner!). We had one for Y5 and the summer, and I think 6 months would have been fine in our case.

On Sats vs 11+ prep - I think the work done with comprehension, maths and the additional reading that a kid who is trying for the 11+ will typically do all feeds into improved Sats, so you'll get elevated Sats results in 11+ areas. Whether tutoring has an additional boosting effect, I don't know.

Finally, whilst the plural of anecdote doesn't equal data I'll add mine: I don't know of anyone using a tutor before Y5, but I do know of one family that have been practicing since Y3. Most didn't start anything until Y5, though.

I agree theknackster. I think with one of my children, I don't need a tutor. They will listen to me, I'm confident to do the preparation work, we'd work through it together. The other child needs for it to be done by a stranger if that makes sense, for focus, knowledge that its appointment that can't be moved / delayed, someone who won't get frustrated like I would because I know they can do it, someone to boost their confidence etc etc.

But if people are under pressure to put DCs on tutor waiting lists at 4yo, how can they know they'll need them by that point? If it turns out they don't, I expect a good number keep the tutor as by then they feel they ought to.

There is an element of truth to that, you want to be on the safe side but my predicament is that I have twins (very different personalities but similar ability) which is causing me all sorts of issues at the mo because I obviously want to do the best for both of them. So yes, Twin 1 will probably still go to the tutor even though its probably a waste of money because Twin 2 probably needs to go and I can't get my head around tutoring 1 and not the other .

Are all the Trafford exams done and dusted for this year?

I was wondering that too. Was wondering if pass marks are going up etc

DD says there is still one exam left (her friend is sitting eight!)
I thought I was being a bit over-cautious letting her do two, but what's the point of eight exams? There are only 6 spaces on the school application form.

I think you get the results before you apply for a school place so doing 8 is hedging your bets. However, surely, there are not 8 state grammar schools where girls can go.

Looking at the form, there seems to be five schools (admitting girls) with "grammar" in the name in Trafford, plus WHGS in catchment but out of Trafford. She must be looking at some fee-paying schools too.
I don't want to interrogate DD about her classmate's school future (that would be a bit weird) so am working from information she told me in general conversation. Sorry if it turns out not to be accurate.

Do Manchester High and Withington do entrance exams at the same time? Maybe that and William Hulme ? They definately must be hedging their bets and determined to avoid comp .