Trafford area 11+ and tutoring

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Hello mums,

I was recently told by someone that every parent in trafford tutors their children with the aim of getting them into the local grammar schools. Whilst not 'every' parent will do it, Is this the case? Do even the children who get sent to the local private schools get tutored too generally? I'm thinking of sending my children to the local private schools with the understanding that they might prepare them better for the 11+ exams (as opposed to tutoring them intensively in the run up).....
The person who told me about the tutoring basically said, there is no advantage to paying for private schools to get into the grammar schools as everyone tutors anyway and the local schools are excellent..... Any thought highly appreciated. Thank you

But an hour a week of private tutoring does in no way compare to 3 yrs private school, with constant exam preparation.
I think the children who are more likely to struggle at the grammars are some of the private school kids who have been tutored to death to pass. That's why AGGS doesn't set until year 9. By that time, the advantage of private has worn off so they can get a much clearer idea of the children's abilities.
I live in trafford, neither of my children attended the grammar schools. We chose the local 'outstanding' school for my DS, as it would be the best school for him. My DD didn't pass the entrance exams, but is doing very well at the top of the same school as my DS.

I've not tutored DD, she likes to play maths games on BBC Bitesize, and is self-motivated with reading and wordplay. I got two practice papers (she got 85% in the first one a week or so back, she'll do the second one this weekend, exams are the weekend after).
DS didn't want to sit any entrance exams as he wanted to go to AoM for their sports facilities. He's doing really well there, in the top set and thriving.
11+ isn't the be all and end all of things, over half DD's class have been tutored since Y3 and for a fair few of them it's been not only a waste of money but has actually turned them off learning for pleasure.
School is about more than exams, especially for young DCs, why put pressure on them?

So I guess prep school has the highest 'success rate' but doesn't sound much fun for the DC unless they are very bright anyway. I assume the number if DC not passing the exams is minimal and the prep schools get judged by results. And there was me thinking it was a relatively level playing field. Thanks for the honesty ladies.

Looking at stretford grammar stats hardly any children move there from prep schools. Does anybody have stats for other grammar schools in trafford?

It's all state by the looks of it, bar a couple? Is that one less competitive? I assume the preps publish where their leavers go?

www.forestschool.co.uk/results.html

Missunreasonable I agree that the economic downturn has played a part in the change. Actually I dont agree that MGS is 'better' than AGSB although I can't argue with your stats (bearing in mind thats only one statistic and I think A levels might be different) but I'm not sure that will continue. The perception here is that MGS is a "back up" - if you dont passAGSB, you still have a shot at MGS. I personally know boys that didnt pass for Alty so took the MGS exams and got in.

Hale Prep used to publish their results - I remember it being very good, the vast majority getting into their school of choice (grammars, private secondaries) with only 1 or 2 going to "other" schools. That was a couple of years ago.

I think Stretford is a different area than Sale / Altrincham. Not sure how many private preps there are in Stretford but dont think its as many as Altrincham. There are at least 10 within a couple of miles of Altrincham so simply more children.

Have just looked up Hale Preps results for 2013.
32 children
17 Alty Grammars
3 MGS (you can see the drop in numbers over last few yrs which backs up what I was saying above)
3 withington / cheadle
9 others

The real losers are the children without prep school, tutoring or any parental assistance (I would imagine that those children are on the whole the most economically deprived too)

Yep, you are right. I would definitely not call myself economically deprived and I am very highly educated. However, as a working lone parent of a few children who gets virtually nil assistance from their father, I have neither the financial means nor the time to pursue the entrance exam route. I'm not convinced that they will lose out in life though.

The real losers are the children without prep school, tutoring or any parental assistance (I would imagine that those children are on the whole the most economically deprived too)

What?!

We live in Trafford and have decided to eschew this whole circus. My dc will be going to our nearest high school. The transition process is amazing, dd is confident, happy and really looking forward to it and feels like the school really want her there. I totally believe she will do as well, if not better in the long term, than some of her over-tutored, pressured, stressed out peers.

We could have afforded a prep, and a tutor, but decided not to do either. Parental assistance? I assume you are also talking about home/self tutoring here? We don't do this either although their learning is enriched by lots of what we do at home and as a family.

I think the whole grammar school system is wrong, particularly here in Trafford. It's a ridiculously elitist outdated system that should have been eradicated by now.

Mandy: I do agree that MGS is a back up for some that don't pass AGSB (only a back up for those with sufficient funds though). Stats for Hale prep will show much more to Alty than MGS and others simply due to logistics.
I don't live anywhere near to Alty but I am aware of the schools in and around Manchester and Trafford and I would agree that the entrance exam for Alty is much tougher than Mgs or Stockport and cheadle etc but I think that is down to sheer number of entrants and competition for places.
You would think that even at GCSE level AGSB would outperform all of the indies seeing as they have a bigger sample to select their students from. I must have a look at the A level results and see how they compare.

Don't think anyone has mentioned it but primary schools round here (Trafford South) got written to asking them to familiarise the Year 5s with the entrance exams. Think it was local MP who instigated it in the hope of getting a higher percentage of kids who live in Trafford into Grammar school. I know the yr 5s were given practice papers at school last term.

Me and a friend are going to tutor our kids together ourselves as they are clever enough to go but lots of their classmates will have a tutor. I have heard lots of stories of children who can't cope once they get to the local grammar while the local high school is great at support on all fronts.

That leaves me wondering about people who move to Trafford assuming their DC will get Grammar. And what happens to those who hate / sink at grammar ???

According to the telegraph league table (for 2013) mgs got better a level results than agsb based on number of pupils who got at least AAB. I'm sure it can be broken down further and that we might see a difference depending on what we break down into.
At the end of the day both schools get excellent results. Better than some of the top public schools.
These schools can provide excellent education for the right boys (right in the sense of personality and personal strengths as well as academic ability). Not every child is suited to such educational environments.
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/leaguetables/10590630/A-level-school-league-tables-2013-compare-your-schools-performance.html#area/Trafford

Yes, I think that's why both the Altrincham Grammars are looking at changing the entrance exam to be more "tutor proof" so that bright children get in (rather than those tutored / prepared). I think one of the local preps was the most vocal in opposing the proposed change.

I believe that at Manchester Grammar pupils are only put in for the exams if they are expected to achieve high marks, and boys who won't make top grades at A level won't be invited to join the sixth form.
All the grammars are reliant on intake, the best 'value added' I think was from Wellington school.

dd is confident, happy and really looking forward to it and feels like the school really want her there. I totally believe she will do as well, if not better in the long term, than some of her over-tutored, pressured, stressed out peers.

I have a friend who teaches at a very high achieving South Manchester girls school. She says that mental health issues, such as anorexia nervosa, are a big problem amongst the pupils. She puts this down to the high pressure to get A*s at GCSE.

I must admit, another thing that puts me off the Trafford grammar schools is that I've heard of pupils (iirc at Altrincham girls, boys, sale at least) who haven't achieved A*, A or B grades at AS level not being allowed to continue to A2 at the school and being forced to find alternative schooling (local comp or trafford college).

I find this appalling.

Apologies if this has already been said, not RTFT !

To all those saying that if your child is reasonably bright and you live within the catchment of the Grammar school, your child will get a place - that is abdolutely NOT the case in Trafford. The Grammar schools are highly selective and run their own exams, in addition to the 11+ ones. They are so selective that in order to maintain league table places they take in children from outside of Trafford over local children.

Its Curtain. First off all you can't get A* at AS level , I think the requirement at AGGS /AGBS C at AS at Ambrose/ Loreto I have it on good authority the minimum is D at A2 I suspect it would be similar at Sale/Urmston.

The reason I know so much is I have been trying to move to Trafford from the Folkestone area for 10 years , I am going to do it 'finally' after DD2 finishes year 11 from her Kent Grammar hopefully will get in to AGGS for sixth form expected 4A* 4A. The problem though is getting DS who will be going in to year 10 in to AGSB , so will be prepared to go private if no places are available. The very interesting point is that if you take the small no of low ability students out of Wellington school they achieve similar results to DD2 and DS grammar's in Kent the average grade for high abilty at GCSE at both DD/DS schools is A- B+ the same at Wellington. The more telling statistics are that at A level DD/DS school average 13/6% 2/3 Facilitating subjects at AAB and average A level grades of C+ yet despite being a 'modern' Wellington still achieves a respectable C- average grade and 5/3% at 2/3 facilitating subjects at AAB. Altrincham Girls is in the 'champions league' by comparison 60/36% 2/3 facilitating subjects at AAB and an average A level grade of A-. The point of this is Trafford parents have got a free 'shot' at grammar without 'awful' consequences of failing.

This is in total contrast to Kent where DD1 despite passing the 11+ with 380 pass (360) was not allowed a grammar place because of scoring only 104 on NVR and the refusal of the head teacher to back an appeal. The result was I had to take drastic action and send DD1 25 miles to live with her dad as that was the least worst 'modern' school .Ultimately she has done quite well with AAB at A2 ( the only A this year from her school) and a place at Leicester.

Totally agree with what mandy was saying earlier up the thread that even if your child passes it may not be the right school for them especially regarding agsg. My dd will sit the exam but in all honesty I don't know if it's the school for her I think she will do better at Loreto but at the moment I'm not making any firm decisions.

itscurtains this is totally the case, the pressure does not stop with entrance exams but if they are not getting the marks they will not be allowed to stay after gcses.

ABB sorry wish AAB misprint!.

I believe that at Manchester Grammar pupils are only put in for the exams if they are expected to achieve high marks, and boys who won't make top grades at A level won't be invited to join the sixth form.

Have you looked at the criteria for entrance into the sixth form at Altrincham boys? They don't take students who are not expected to get very good A levels either.

For those offered a place in the Sixth Form the requirement for entry is that students must have achieved at least 48 GCSE points (A = 8 points, A = 7 points; B = 6 points etc.) from their best 8 GCSE results and that they should have achieved at least 3 A grades or better. In addition to the above students must have achieved at least a B grade in the subjects to be studied at AS level or in related subjects. Please note that only 1 Maths grade can count towards the 48 points/ 3A grades requirement.*

Copy and pasted from agsb sixth form admission criteria. Being in the school doesn't guarantee a place in the sixth form it would seem.

Miss. I think 48 points = 2 A 14 5 B 30 1 C 5= 49 . Considering the level of the schoo,l the requirements are not to bad at all. Chelmsford High for girls for instance requires 54 Points that is 'normal' for the high quality grammar schools.