Trafford area 11+ and tutoring

[smileyface128]

Hello mums,

I was recently told by someone that every parent in trafford tutors their children with the aim of getting them into the local grammar schools. Whilst not 'every' parent will do it, Is this the case? Do even the children who get sent to the local private schools get tutored too generally? I'm thinking of sending my children to the local private schools with the understanding that they might prepare them better for the 11+ exams (as opposed to tutoring them intensively in the run up).....
The person who told me about the tutoring basically said, there is no advantage to paying for private schools to get into the grammar schools as everyone tutors anyway and the local schools are excellent..... Any thought highly appreciated. Thank you

Ladybird and their stifled looks of horror when you say that your DC are not taking entrance exams but going to the local school. Only 3 boys from last year's Yr6 are going to Ambrose, as far as I know. About 3 kids are going to Bedes, about 10 or so girls are going to Loretto and most of the others are going to Barlow. The majority will be staying on School Lane. I'm perfectly happy!

Hello curtains. It's really hard to work out what percent of Trafford state DC get into grammar it appears. There are several private preps in Trafford. Lots of South Manchester families apply too and it appears tutor - even if they don't admit it !! About a third of the girls in the school below appear to be going to Loreto even tho it's Manchester. A chunk of families from other South Manchester primaries do the same. Can anyone solve the mystery ?!?!

I thought it was good to live in Trafford, now I'm wondering!

There's no way I can/would pay for prep school. Can just about stretch to a tutor for weaker subjects or exam prep if necessary.

In my day you just went to the local comp (not in Trafford though, obviously) - it seemed much simpler then

Stretford grammar publish info on where the students come from

www.stretfordgrammar.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Which-schools-do-our-students-come-from.pdf

The link she's that most of the students come from state primary schools. I do appreciate that altrincham boys and girls might have more from prep schools but I don't know what the stats actually are for those schools.

Ladybird and Fletcher
The best bit was the grammar open day when I saw lots of children and parents from DC year who had been very secretive or some who had said their child was not sitting the entrance exam. Busted!

Nobody wants your child to have any advantage (real or perceived) over theirs.

I have prepared what I will say if DC doesn't get a place, but I am always saying how lovely Barlow is and it would be fine to go there. I feel that in DC's class the kids are competitive and almost egging each other on.
Part of me worries that DC might get into a grammar with luck and the tutoring has built up their expectations. I wouldn't want them to struggle at grammar

I think that you have to bear in mind that some grammars are much easier to get into than others and thinks like which primary your dc is at make a difference.

My dd is at the main feeder for loreto and although it's by no means easy to get into it's much easier to get into than alty girls.

From a year of ninty about 25 girls are going to loreto and 4 to alty girls of course there is a religion side to it, also we are not told how many passed each school just where they are going so others may have passed alty girls and not taken the place although I can't imagine many more will have passed and not taken the place.

I find it odd and frankly perplexing that South Manchester children can enter Trafford grammars (around 50% of Stretford Grammar pupils I believe) but Trafford children can't enter Manchester comps. Do Trafford schools run a surplus of places to allow for it?

Elizabeth: it's to do with admission criteria and what is permissible legally. Comps have to take based on different criteria to grammars, religious schools or even academies (usually comps are children in care, siblings then, distance ). Admission criteria has to be approved by an external body. That is why it is more difficult to get a place in a comp if you live out of catchment. Trafford children can apply for places at south manchester comprehensive Schools but they are unlikely to get a place at a fully subscribed school because their distance means they don't qualify according to admission criteria and it is illegal for schools to not comply with the criteria.

I guess a lot of Stretford Grammar must come from central Manchester and Chorlton schools then as it's very close. Doesn't Manchester LA give comp school priority to children at Manchester primaries? I am sure I read that - as several Manchester schools are on the border with other LAs - risking Manchester primary children not getting in if it was just distance ... Must look it up

South Manchester children can apply but the grammars have admission criteria as well and I know that altrincham grammars give priority to children in catchment. Is it the odd child from out of trafford that get in or is it a significant number?

Always I know of kids who have had tutors for entrance exams at St C's since year 3!!!

The Stretford Grammar admissions data is very interesting now I have had time to look - huge number of primary schools sending 1 or 2 children, others up to 7 of 8 about half from Manchester at a glance and virtually all state. It's no wonder StC gets good sats

Ladybirds - I have had this conversation before with others - what would the SAT results be like if nobody was tutored. I wonder if you were part of that chat

Fletcher - so do I! So when DC is feeling down about certain kids always being top I remind them of that fact.

Always - news to me about tutoring. Really I had no idea it was that prevalent. People talk about how good the results are and I did wonder how come. I am so so dim at times and really need to catch up

Thanks your you input :-)

Smiley really sorry for hi jacking. Your post really got me thinking as I had total misunderstanding on how it all works and had seriously been thinking about moving over to Trafford as there is so much hype over getting into grammars etc We have not got to year 3 just yet so guess we have it all to come. I must do some asking about on who is planning to tutor

Smiley I am not sure your query was in fact answered either. I guess we conclude that prep does just that. Prep. State parents tutor from year 3,4 or 5? If I was you and your DC are happy at state school I would just go for the tutoring route and settled happy DC (and it's cheaper)

Why would any one from Trafford want to apply for a secondary school in South Manchester. I think its crazy especially as the non selective schools in Trafford are better then 'most ' if not all of Manchester's schools.

The people from Trafford don't know how 'lucky' they are having such good 'high schools' and having a good fall back if they kids fail the 11+.
Try living in Kent (like me) you would realise how lucky you are to be able to go to secondary schools like Wellington should your kids fail.

I assume you must be from our parts Smoke? I have just learnt that there is not one 11 plus but a series of entrance exams and that tutors are the norm. You are right in that Trafford high schools are good and Manchester were historically not great but they are changing for the better at a positive rate

I'm in Trafford. I have twins about to start Year 5. They are at a (very good) state school and everyone (without exception) that I know well enough to discuss it is tutoring if their children are sitting the exams. I was advised to put their names down with a well regarded tutor about 3 years ago. When you say the tutor business locally is booming, you have no idea!!

As someone up thread said, the local prep schools prepare for the entrance exams quite aggressively which state schools aren't allowed to do, so the tutoring is levelling the playing field a little.

As far as I know, there are no "stats" about how many children get in generally from state schools. Certainly at my children's school it can vary from year to year. As far as I know, roughly 26 or 27 girls take the exam most years - 8 got in to AGGS 2 years ago, 22 got in last year. They do say roughly 40-50% "pass" but that means a place at a local grammar (i.e. Sale, Altrincham, St Ambrose - not just the Altrincham grammars). Also bear in mind that unless you're catholic, there is very little chance of getting in Loretto or St Ambrose. There have been no non-Catholic admissions to Loretto for a long time (as far as I know), there were a handful at St Ambrose 2 or 3 years ago but not for the last couple of years (unless it was under the sibling rule).

Having said that, the grammars out perform some of the private schools, so children that previously would have gone to say Manchester Grammar, Withington Girls, now take places at the Altrincham Grammars. As a result, the competition is massively fierce for the grammars (I think 1800 took the exam for 180 places at AGGS last year) so moving to Trafford is absolutely no guarantee of getting in. But, the upshot is that lots of children who would previously have got grammar school places are going to the local secondaries (Wellington etc) so their results are increasing massively too.

We moved from a different area before our children started school - education being one of the reasons, but I also didn't realise quite how competitive it is. Not just for school places, but because so many families live here, there is competition / waiting lists for absolutely everything (like Brownies / swimming lessons etc!). Most of the time, I don't regret it because I like living here, it has worked out for us with neighbours etc, but would could have a similar sized house for £100k less if we lived a couple of miles away. You pay a premium to live within catchment for good primary / grammar schools etc but its definitely not any guarantee of securing a grammar school education these days.

Hope that helps.

Mandy awesome insight. It's no wonder that AGGS is one of the countries top schools for results then! And yes that also will influence the local high schools

The other thing I should have said is that there is definitely a "fit" certainly at AGGS (perhaps less so at the boys). I obviously don't have any children there yet? but you need to visit and perhaps speak to parents. As you can anticipate, there are all sorts of rumours that circulate, good and bad, but there does seem to be a consensus that the girls need to be confident, independent and very bright to do well. Girls who are perhaps a little shy / timid / need support don't thrive (sweeping generalisation) under the constant academic pressure. We have neighbours with girls there who absolutely love it, but similarly a neighbour whose daughter narrowly missed out and is now in the top set at Wellington and doing brilliantly. So it was really just an extra paragraph to say don't assume the grammars are necessarily the best - there is no doubt they are brilliant academically but you need to gauge whether its right for your child. Having said that, Trafford has outstanding schools whether you go down the grammar route or not.

Mandy: I haven't looked at all the private vs grammar stats but I do know that altrincham Boys is not outperforming manchester grammar at gcse level. This years GCSE results show that 92% of gcse results achieved an A* or A at MGS whereas it was 68% at Altrincham boys. Altrincham boys results were similar to Stockport Grammar and better than Cheadle.
I think the economic downturn is part of the reason for the increase in applications to the state grammars (as well as the comparative results for some options).
people don't just choose schools based on results and statistics but it is one of the (amongst other) considerations for many.
I personally have no problem with children moving from prep to state grammar. Lots of parents struggle financially to put children through prep school and can't afford the jump in fees from prep to grammar. Tutoring does level the playing field a bit for those coming from state schools as does parental assistance. The real losers are the children without prep school, tutoring or any parental assistance (I would imagine that those children are on the whole the most economically deprived too).