What will happen to Princess Charlotte’s future family?

[VelvetAndPVC]

The thread about Peter Philips’ second engagement has got me thinking and now I have a question for you royal experts.

Now that the latest Letter Patent has placed Princess Charlotte ahead of Prince Louis in the LoS, what will happen when Princess Charlotte marries? Being a female and additionally not the immediate heir, there is a statistical likelihood she will be the first of the Wales children to marry. Will her husband likely receive a title and thus will their children receive titles? According to tradition this shouldn’t happen and Princess Charlotte’s future husband and children, as was in the case of Princess Anne, should be title-less because usually the husband of a female Royal doesn’t automatically receive a title.

Princess Anne was always ranked behind her three brothers on the LoS but this time around things are different and Princess Charlotte and any future children will rank higher than Prince Louis and his future children. It is expected that Prince Louis’ wife would receive a Duchess title and their children Prince and Princess titles (assuming, sadly, that by the time any of the Wales’ children are ready for marriage it is quite likely their father would be King).

So will there be any change for Princess Charlotte’s husband? Their first child is likely to be 3rd in line to the throne. And to have a 3rd in line without a title, would that be awkward?

IMO the middle of a cost of living crisis, and people being angry and the political scene, isn't the time they're going to want to highlight that big changes can be made.

In the same way they'll never remove titles from one royal because it highlights that it can be done, without as much complication as a lot of people would think, so it could put them in the firing line next, they'll not make changes unless it's absolutely necessary while the mood for them isn't riding high in the polls.

They can change the rules going forward without it applying retrospectively. Charlotte is above her younger brother in the line of succession, but Louise is still below her younger brother. Removing titles from people who have them causes more controversy than it’s worth, so the Kents, Gloucesters, Beatrice, Eugenie, Archie and Lilibet (and James and Louise if they choose to use them at any point) all keep their titles and going forward only George’s children have them. Removing titles feels more pointed than just not awarding them in the first place. I also think a cost of living crisis is the perfect time to say they’re slimming down the monarchy.

I doubt they would need any PR for that change though even now. It would be meet with almost universal approval/indifference. They are the ones reluctant to do it.

Sorry I was suggesting they'd use PR if in future when if they get there it looks controversal for some reason - as public views can shift or be shifted.

Say the spouse marrying in kicks off in some way - perhaps the aren't bristish or white or right class and perhaps public opinion might go their way.

I wasn't suggesting it was contoversal now with the public.

I suspect that partly why they aren't re-doing the letters patient now it's not needed currently and they can judge what they need with any changes closer to the time and I suspect they'd get very restrictive with titles going forward.

They have time on their side - they don't need to rush any changes but make them seem very natural progressions and yes they can make changes just for future generation but again they have time on their side and lots of expensive staff including PR professionals - so image they have it all well in hand.

I don't think they do have time on their side. Charles is elderly and has cancer. If he removed the titles going forward for children of grandchildren who are currently children themselves then it wont matter who they marry, or who kicks off because the rules have been changed before they even came on the scene and that's that. Its completely different from William removing titles from his own potential grandchildren when his kids are adults or nearly adults ( if Charles lives another 10 years or so). I agree that this is the perfect time to do it. I dont think anyone would mind if they did it retrospectively like the other European Royals have done, but Charles may not want to do that because his grandchildren are already born and there is already too much animosity between them. The Sussex kids will be the same as those Eurotrash Royals from deposed European Royal families who wander around pretending it matters that they are Prince or Count something so they dont matter really. They live in the US. I think it is important that the titles are restricted seriously going forward. I would say they should go further down the European Royals route where they have 'Crown Prince/Princess' and that's it, so even children of the Monarch don't have it. I doubt they will ever do that unless the alternative is no Monarchy at all.

I think atm a decision to remove titles, but not retrospectively would be a PR disaster as it would be reported as "Andrew keeps title" or even "King wants Andrew titled".

Within days there would be a "William wanted Andrew and Harry stripped of titles but Charles said no" type of reporting as well.

I thought the grandchildren of a monarch were (since George V's letters patent)?
Or does that only apply to the the children of the monarch's sons?

It only applies to the male line grandchildren

I thought the grandchildren of a monarch were (since George V's letters patent)?
Or does that only apply to the the children of the monarch's sons?

Only grandchildren on the male line.

It would then end up at Harry, Harry's children, grandchildren

I don't think they do have time on their side. Charles is elderly and has cancer.

If William ends up doing it when Charlotte or Louis gets married I really don't see any great harm - it's tidying up an anomaly that got created when succession laws were updated.

They can changes rules how ever they want - restict titles or add them to Charlotte's kids - later they do it more flxiblity they allow themsleves till that point's reached. Plus marriage across all social groups had got later in UK - so they could have a lot more time than some posters think.

Times gives them more space from Sussex and Andrew drama as well.

With the rules that most people would expect, as the child of a monarch Andrew would still have a title, just that it wouldn’t be hereditary and a retrospective application would only remove B&E’s titles. Andrew, Anne, Edward, Harry, Charlotte and Louis would still be prince(ss) but their children would be Miss/Master. Unless the titles only go to the eldest child so Prince George of Wales, Miss Charlotte M-W and Master Louis M-W, which would be fine. Part of me thinks that having equality between siblings is important but then equality between siblings is antithetical to a hereditary monarchy so might as well make it clear from day one with the titles.

It would also remove the Kent and Gloucester titles, tbh I don’t this is fair.

DofG fave up his career to support the monarchy. DofK supported QEII as well.

Bit of a slap in the face to say thanks for that, but now your titles are being removed!

This is a very good point!
unfortunately though many people don’t know or understand what these people have been doing ( mainly now) in the background all these years.

It would also remove the Kent and Gloucester titles, tbh I don’t this is fair.

I don't think they would make retrospective changes just changes going forward.

Currently Duke of Gloucester 80 Duke of Kent 89 - Prince Andrew is 65 and Charlotte 10 - Louis 7 and if they are more like Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie married 32 and 30 there could be 2 decades before this is an issue.

Thank you.

So it seems likely Princess Charlotte’s husband will not be titled. I assume he can’t be a working Royals without a title.

In 15 years time we are likely to have a King William and Queen Catherine. Who will the working Royals be? Princess Anne will be 90, Prince Edward and Sophie will be 76/75.

Prince George will be 27, Princess Charlotte 25, Prince Louis 22. Prince William didn’t become a full time working Royal until he was 35.

King William and Queen Catherine will be supported by a due-for-retirement Prince Edward and Sophie, if they are lucky.

Imagine you’re born a royal and your parents choose not to give you a title. I’d be pissed off forever.

Lady Louise seems happy - and I think can change her mind and be a princess as an adult but hasn't so far.

So it seems likely Princess Charlotte’s husband will not be titled. I assume he can’t be a working Royals without a title.

Working royals is a modern phenomenon so don't think there be anything saying he couldn't be one with no title.

I expect they'll ask any future the couple nearer the time and give them options - as frankly they'd both be kids at minute and so much is unknowable now - she may remain a single or marry later in life or not want kids and all this would be completely irrelevant.

Princess Ann does engagements and is a working royal - her first husband turned down a title and her second doesn't have one but does accompany her on royal vists and events.

I think they will in future be spread much thinner but then maybe they'll cut back on what they do or plan in some other way - they have time to plan and make changes and a reduced RF may be the way forward - who knows.

I think Princess Ann two kids with no titles at all don't seem resentfiul either.

So there a precedent with Edward kids of lesser titles being used in preference and with Ann's of no titles - suppose it depends on the path they grow up and want to take along with any future spouses.

This has happened before, with the current king. An exception was made for him and Anne.

He would have to abdicate.

This is always been the case though. Beatrice and Eugenie, Louise and James, were all titled when their higher ranking cousins (once removed), Archie and Lilibet, weren’t.

What happens if the main royals are gay or infertile or atheist?

We've likely had gay monarchs, infertity or lack of heirs also happened before and there a well established line of succsion to go down.

Athistsm or any other relgion would only be an issue if publically stated ( Charles II likely converted on death bed to Catholic )

It would be a massive issue if they convert to another reglion - as they are head of the church of England and have to swear to uphold the church of Scotland. I think only Roman catholics are speciifcally excluded so not entirely clear on how another reglion would actually play out - but it would cause problems.

I think the biggest issue is going to be in the next 5-10 years as Charles, Camilla and Anne all age and before Williams 3 are really old enough to be working.

Thats the hole that Harry has left and Charles 'slimmed monarchy' didn't really account for.
I do think William is going to need some of his cousins to help, just as the Queen did, but would they want to?

And I don't think Williams kids will have the luxury or faffing around out of the spotlight until their mid 30s.
Anne was full-time royal at 18, Charles was mid 20s, I think thats more likely for Williams kids.

Yes, the monarch has considerable discretion with the use of Letters Patent.

One of the oddest circumstances for it was the situation of Princess Elizabeth after she married Philip and gave birth to Charles and Anne before she became Queen. George VI had to issue LPs so that Elizabeth's children could have the titles of HRH and prince/princess. Otherwise they would have only had titles that came from Philip as Duke of Edinburgh, which would have been the courtesy title of Earl for Charles and Lady for Anne.