What will happen to Princess Charlotte’s future family?

[VelvetAndPVC]

The thread about Peter Philips’ second engagement has got me thinking and now I have a question for you royal experts.

Now that the latest Letter Patent has placed Princess Charlotte ahead of Prince Louis in the LoS, what will happen when Princess Charlotte marries? Being a female and additionally not the immediate heir, there is a statistical likelihood she will be the first of the Wales children to marry. Will her husband likely receive a title and thus will their children receive titles? According to tradition this shouldn’t happen and Princess Charlotte’s future husband and children, as was in the case of Princess Anne, should be title-less because usually the husband of a female Royal doesn’t automatically receive a title.

Princess Anne was always ranked behind her three brothers on the LoS but this time around things are different and Princess Charlotte and any future children will rank higher than Prince Louis and his future children. It is expected that Prince Louis’ wife would receive a Duchess title and their children Prince and Princess titles (assuming, sadly, that by the time any of the Wales’ children are ready for marriage it is quite likely their father would be King).

So will there be any change for Princess Charlotte’s husband? Their first child is likely to be 3rd in line to the throne. And to have a 3rd in line without a title, would that be awkward?

I think the assumption is the heir to the throne will take it and have heirs so the bloodline carries on.

Harry's children are an unknown quantity at the moment - hard to say how they'll be perceived by future generations. Archie might become a famous film star or something!

Yes. And when Princess Margaret married her sister was on the throne, had produced 3 heirs and hadn’t finished having children. Princess Margaret was 4th in the line of succession, likely to move further down the LoS and thus the chance of Princess Margaret taking the throne was slim.

Hypothesizing that the Wales children are heterosexual and Princess Charlotte marries first, as statistically likely, with Prince George’s fertility unproved…I think there must be a change to rules enforced.

Could they still be a Prince or Princess if their father wasn’t a Prince or held no title?

Yes they could if that's the title they were given by LPs.

When QEII's children were given the HRH Prince/Princess title Philip wasn't a Prince at that point - he'd given up his original title and George VI had made him a royal Duke. He wasn't a Prince of the UK until 1957.

Edward VII also done it for the daughters of Princess Louise when he made her Princess Royal. Their father was the Duke of Fife so the children were originally titled as Lady Alexandra and Lady Maud. Then 'upgraded' to HRH Princess by their grandfather later.

Very informative, thank you

The Fife's also show they can pretty much do what they want with titles in terms of female descendants as well.

When it became clear Princess Louise and the Duke of Fife were only going to have their two girls the Dukedom was granted again allowing it to be passed to Alexandra when their father died and then to the male heirs. The next Duke was Maud's son.

So royal Dukedoms can be passed to daughters if set up as such.

According to tradition this shouldn’t happen and Princess Charlotte’s future husband and children, as was in the case of Princess Anne, should be title-less because usually the husband of a female Royal doesn’t automatically receive a title

Didn't this all change when the LoS rule changed? I would have thought that along with removing the male dominance in LoS the difference in how the spouse of a female child is treated compared to the spouse of a male child. Wasn't the point to remove the gender imbalance?

The line of succession changed literally only changed that the line would be age order. It didn't change inheritance of titles or anything else.

The LP's that affected the Cambridge/Wales children basically changed from "the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of wales" to "all children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales". This means all of George's children will be automatically be entitled titled to be Hrh Prince/Princess.

Princesses cannot currently pass titles on to their children automatically. It would still have to be dealt with as it was for QEII when she was Princess Elizabeth

What a shame they didn't sort it all out in one go.

What a shame they didn't sort it all out in one go.

It is.

I think those LP's should have been fixed at the very least to "all children of the eldest child of the sovereign" as currently if George's eldest hypothetical child is a daughter then she would be a future Queen, but her children wouldn't automatically be titled. Which is nonsense when they would if his eldest is a son.

They would presumably then do exactly what George VI did when his daughter Princess Elizabeth married Prince Phillip in 1948: issue a specific Letter Patent giving their children the style or Prince or Princess.

They would presumably then do exactly what George VI did when his daughter Princess Elizabeth married Prince Phillip in 1948: issue a specific Letter Patent giving their children the style or Prince or Princess.

Yes, they will, but given they were amending the LP's they could very easily have sorted it so that it was automatic that a future Queen's children were titled. That they chose not to do so shows there is still an unwillingness to change.

I think it was the Queen that had the unwillingness to change; I assume there was an unwritten agreement with Harry to follow the example of his Uncle Edward and refuse titles for his children beyond courtesy ones. But I assume that longer term Prince and Princess titles will be restricted to the direct line, probably when the late Queen's cousins who are still working royals have died. Then I reckon Beatrice, Eugenie, Archie and Lilibet will lose theirs.

That's my theory too. I think the expectation was that Harry would 'agree' not to have titles for his children, and that at some point the LP's would be changed so that only the children of the heir are entitled to be Prince(ss). I think Britain is the only European monarchy where non direct line grandchildren still get to be Prince or Princess, and it does seem a bit OTT in this day and age.

I expect that will still happen, but I'm not any such change would be retrospective, especially as the titles can't be passed down.

There isn't really a 'they' here. LP's are basically a royal decree, entirely at the whim of the Monarch. The Queen was indeed conservative, as might be expected from someone of her generation, but Charles and certainly William will presumably be much less so.

Wasn’t it the Danish royal family that recently stripped some of the younger, non-heir grandchildren of their prince and princess titles—and didn’t one of the princes publicly object? That decision definitely stirred up controversy, and I imagine such a move would be even more fraught here in the UK.

If William were to strip Beatrice and Eugenie of their titles, I doubt Andrew would take it quietly—he’s always appeared particularly invested in their status as “princesses of the blood.” And if Harry and Meghan’s children were included in any title changes, it would only reignite the row over Meghan’s previous claims about Archie being denied a title due to race. Even if the rationale was framed as modernisation, the optics could be politically and emotionally explosive.

Honestly, the late Queen probably should have addressed all this more clearly during her reign—it would have saved the next generation a lot of unnecessary tension.

Yes, Queen Margrethe removed the princely titles from the three sons and daughter of her younger son, Prince Joachim. As far as I know, the move was quite popular in Denmark, though some thought it was a bit abrupt. Prince Joachim and his wife Princess Marie publicly complained about it, but I guess they'll just have had to get over it.

I agree the late Queen really should have taken care of this in her reign, but that was never her style. The situation being as it is, I think Charles should make moves to limit royal titles only to George's children going forward, without making it retrospective. Much better to make the change long before the children concerned are born

I think the more interesting question is about Louis. There is a discrepancy in the males and females which hasnt been addressed, I don't think. At the moment male children of the Monarch are Prince/Princess ( I think Edwards children are Prince/Princess but they don't use them) but female children aren't. So Louis' children would be Prince/Princess but Charlottes wouldn't, even though he is lower down. That is clearly unfair. I think neither Charlotte or Louis children should be Prince/Princess. That would slim down the number of titles handed out and be fair. If George doesn't have children then Charlottes eldest child could be given a title. I think if none of the children have children then steps would be made towards a Republic. It doesn't make sense to carry on down the line to Harry, 2 children who would have never set foot in the country and then down to Andrews kids.

I agree. Charles really needs to do this sharpish before the Wales kids grow up. If only for their sakes. Make it clear they will have no titles before they are born. Its too late I think to take away Harrys kids titles, although he could do that like the Danish Royals. He already has a terrible relationship with Harry. It can hardly be worse.

It is a good idea to take away the titles of those not in Williams direct family. This should be done now.

There isn't really a 'they' here. LP's are basically a royal decree, entirely at the whim of the Monarch. The Queen was indeed conservative, as might be expected from someone of her generation, but Charles and certainly William will presumably be much less so.

Technically LPs are at the whim of the monarch, but it's highly unlikely that in the issue of titles for William's children, and future grandchildren, the Queen would have gone against their wishes if they wanted them to state that future Queen's children would be automatically titled.

I think if there had been an Edward style agreement then it would have been announced on Harry and Megan's wedding day, as it was on Edward and Sophie's.

I don't think Charles ever had any intention of removing titles from any of his grandchildren.

I don't think the slimming that people think he wants to do includes (or ever included) his grandchildren. The slimming was making clear that Andrew's children, Edward's children and the children of the current working Kent's and Gloucester's were not going to have full time royal roles.

When the rumours of the slimming started the working royals were (or expected to be) QEII, Philip, QEQM, Margaret, Charles, his wife, Anne, Andrew, his wife, Edward, his wife, the Kent's, Alexandra and the Gloucester's.

The slimming talk was, imo, making clear that for him the future (at that point)working royals were him, his wife, Anne, his brothers and their wives, and his children. With the Queen's cousins involved less as time went on.

Since the change in the LsP, Charlotte's title of princess is the equivalent of her brothers' title of prince - it's not a courtesy title like Princess Anne's - she has an equal part in the LoS.
When Kate married William, he was given a dukedom and she took her title from that but technically, he was always still a prince and she could have been known as Princess William in the same way as Princess Michael of Kent uses her husband's title.
Therefore, Charlotte's husband could be styled Prince Charlotte or even be known as Prince XX (James or whatever) and their children could be princes and princesses too. If she chose for her husband/children not to have titles, that would not affect the children's ability to be king/queen. It's not the title that makes a person Nth in line to the throne.
It makes sense to settle a dukedom on each of them (George, Charlotte, Louis) when they marry or when they reach a certain age. That would solve some of the issues about titles.
But truly, whatever the RF want to do, they can make happen and William will have some sensible ideas and good advice about that in due course.

Since the change in the LsP, Charlotte's title of princess is the equivalent of her brothers' title of prince - it's not a courtesy title like Princess Anne's - she has an equal part in the LoS.

Anne's title isn't a courtesy title. She, and Charles, were titled by their grandfather in the exact same way the then-Cambridge children were titled by their great-granny.

And in fact since the Queen became Queen Anne was automatically title HRH The Princess Anne.

Charlotte's future husband wouldn't automatically be titled Prince Charlotte in the same way as the wife of a Prince, LP's could be issued titling him as such, similar to the Earl of Snowdon's title, but it isn't automatic as it would be with thr wife of a Prince, the change to the LoS doesn't change that at all.

Therefore, Charlotte's husband could be styled Prince Charlotte or even be known as Prince XX (James or whatever) and their children could be princes and princesses too. If she chose for her husband/children not to have titles, that would not affect the children's ability to be king/queen.

That's not correct.

Under current conventions, only males can pass down titles. As things stand, both George's and Louis' children will be entitled to be Prince or Princess, but Charlotte's will not.

Charlotte's Princess title is no more 'real' than Anne's.