What will happen to Princess Charlotte’s future family?

[VelvetAndPVC]

The thread about Peter Philips’ second engagement has got me thinking and now I have a question for you royal experts.

Now that the latest Letter Patent has placed Princess Charlotte ahead of Prince Louis in the LoS, what will happen when Princess Charlotte marries? Being a female and additionally not the immediate heir, there is a statistical likelihood she will be the first of the Wales children to marry. Will her husband likely receive a title and thus will their children receive titles? According to tradition this shouldn’t happen and Princess Charlotte’s future husband and children, as was in the case of Princess Anne, should be title-less because usually the husband of a female Royal doesn’t automatically receive a title.

Princess Anne was always ranked behind her three brothers on the LoS but this time around things are different and Princess Charlotte and any future children will rank higher than Prince Louis and his future children. It is expected that Prince Louis’ wife would receive a Duchess title and their children Prince and Princess titles (assuming, sadly, that by the time any of the Wales’ children are ready for marriage it is quite likely their father would be King).

So will there be any change for Princess Charlotte’s husband? Their first child is likely to be 3rd in line to the throne. And to have a 3rd in line without a title, would that be awkward?

True, but as I recall at the time, much of the discussion in the press suggested that the idea of Edward's children not using prince/ princess came from Charles. Obviously, the Queen had to agree to this, and so did Edward, but I believe that the original notion came from Charles as his first step in slimming down the monarchy.

There was also press coverage at the time that Andrew was upset about this because of the possible implications for Beatrice and Eugenie.

Because they were grandchildren along the male line of the Monarch, so in terms of birth rules they were grandchildren of the Monarch. When Charles because King, Archie and Lilli were also grandchildren of a Monarch. Once William is King and George, Charlotte and Louis are adults and have children, George and Louis children will be P/P but Charlottes wont be. Despite her being higher up the LoS than Louis. They will all be grandchildren of the Monarch, and first cousins, ( not the case with A and L in relation to Bea etc) but will have a different ranking purely on the basis of the sex of their parent.

Archie and Lilibet could have Lord/Lady titles at birth as children of a Duke but the choice was made not to use them.

I agree that they need to end the disparity between the entitlement of the descendants of the sexes, rather than it being because none titled royals can outrank a titled one.

I think her husband will get a title, like Anthony Armstrong-Jones (Earl Snowden) did. Mark Phillips was offered a title (probably an Earldom) but he and Anne declined. Had they accepted Zara and Peter would have been a lord and Lady as Princess Margaret's children are and as Prince Edward's children were when he was Earl of Wessex).

Thats the hole that Harry has left and Charles 'slimmed monarchy' didn't really account for.

The age difference between Charles and Andrew also means he's left a gap as well.

Andrew, Edward and Sophie would have been expected to be the bridge between Charles' reign and William's reign given the age gaps.

There was a poster on a thread ages ago who worked out with Andrew doing a full time stint and Harry, and his wife (who in the slimming plans would absolutely have been expected to be a full time working royal) you're probably talking about somewhere between 500-800 engagements a year that it was anticipated those three would cover.

And I don't think Williams kids will have the luxury or faffing around out of the spotlight until their mid 30s.
Anne was full-time royal at 18, Charles was mid 20s, I think thats more likely for Williams kids.

If William is as furious with Harry as certain media outlets claim I wouldn't be surprised if that was a large part of why.

But this is not the only option. That was 1960 (Margaret and Tony). Surely by the time that Charlotte has decided to marry, the RF and associated institutions will have figured out a way to revise the male only descendants rule.

In Sweden, the children of Princess Madeleine have standing and titles equal to those of her brother Prince Carl Philip: Prince/Princess but not HRH. The children of their older sister, Crown Princess Victoria are HRH Princess/Prince, but they are in the direct line of succession. The British RF could do something similar: slim down use of titles while also eliminating the sexism.

I mean, do they need to do all of those though? How many of those engagements are 'busywork' and really, how many engagements will they be doing in 15 years time? It has been shown that having a Royal patronage makes little to no difference to charitable donations. William only wants to concentrate on his pet projects and move away from the handshaking so the engagements they will be able to cover will probably drastically reduce ( Whether their income/ houses/ expenses will reduce at the same time remains to be seen). We don't need 5 people employed full time doing the job most other Heads of State manage between one or two people. Once they have partners then presumably that will mean finding things for 8 people to do. They can turn up for the balconies and the ceremonial events and take on a pet charity each themselves after being in the armed forces or whatever. If William thinks being a full time Royal is such a hardship for his children, he should be encouraging the younger two to be doing something else, maybe in the model of Zara Phillips, or staying in the Armed Forces or working for their foundation or something. Then there is also less risk of them feeling redundant in their later years as their older brother has children and they become irrelevant. There really is no need for them to be 'working Royals' at all in the current format.

I agree. Also, whatever legitimate reasons William may have for being angry with Harry, certainly the fact that William's children may have to begin working in their mid-twenties should not be one of them.

On the other hand, I think in the modern world, these Royal children should have some choice about their life's work. The heir has little choice, but the others should have some choice if ribbon cutting does not appeal.

Actually yes, LOL. God forbid that they will have to do some Royalling from their mid 20's, as if its such a hardship for the little lambs! Most young people are out working, paying rent, paying their student loans back at that age! The 'They work until they are dead' doesn't really cut it when their work is being driven to places for half an hour, making small talk and going to the theatre and sporting events. While never having to cook, run a hoover around, pay a bill, do anything unless they want to.

They could, but I think the likely outcome is similar to what has happened before. Will they bother making official changes when essentially the same result can be achieved by offering Charlotte's spouse a title?

I have no idea whether they would bother. That would depend primarily on whether they want to continue a deeply sexist approach.

Giving Charlotte’s spouse only makes her children eligible to be Lord/Lady (like Margaret’s children) rather than untitled (like Anne’s children). Unless Charlotte marries someone who has a Prince/ss title they can hand down to their children, Charlotte’s children will not have the option to be HRH Prince(ss) and Louis’ children will. Even if the decision is made that Louis’ children are not styled as such like Louise and James, that option will be available to them and if they want to use that title it would be be their right, unlike their higher ranked cousins.

I think it is likely that they won't style Louis' children as HRH Prince/Princess as that fits the slimmed down style.

I think there is recognition that Zara, Peter, Louise and James are in a better position in terms of living a "normal" relatively low key life than Beatrice and Eugenie.

There isn’t a ‘they’ deciding how the Louis’ children are styled. It will be down to Louis while his children are minors and to them when they are adults because according to the current letters patent, that’s their right. James could decide when he’s an adult he’d rather be Prince James and no-one could stop him. I rather get the impression the royal family would rather that Archie and Lily weren’t Prince and Princess but since they are entitled to the titles, their parents have decided to use them.

I just don’t think gender equality is acknowledging the inequality between Louis and Charlotte and saying it’s ok because the plan is for people who have no way of agreeing to anything now to deal with it among themselves

The current Letters Patent that govern the situation are more than 100 years old. They were issued in part to eliminate princely titles from the great-grandchildren of a monarch. They stipulated that great-grandchildren in the male line would no longer have princely titles (as they did prior to the 1917 LPs) but have titles associated with a dukedom. Thus, for example, the children of Prince Michael of Kent are Lord and Lady, but the children of his sister Princess Alexandra are not.

New LPs can do something similar, but bring it up a generation to eliminate princely titles for the grandchildren of a monarch not in the direct line of succession. But whatever provision is made for them, such as using Lord and Lady titles, should have equal application to male and female line grandchildren.

Agree. I don think its good enough to say that Louis will probably decide not to style his children prince/ Princess. He is 6. How do we know how he will turn out? He could be another Andrew/Harry. Both exceedingly cute children who were the 'cheeky, fun ones in the well worn narrative.

I don think its good enough to say that Louis will probably decide not to style his children prince/ Princess. He is 6.

I don't think this is an issue remotely on the public radar at the moment - and till it is I expect they won't do anything about publically.

They may make plans and have family discussions try and perhaps set expectations behind closed door and then decide when kids are adults and can have their own veiws but they really don't have to fix anything now - so suspect they won't.

Assuming George has children, then Charlotte and Louis should be treated the same in terms of titles.

There's no reason they can't create Charlotte as a Duchess in her own right, with a title that doesn't pass down. And her husband (if she marries a man) should be titled Duke. Everyone can get used to the fact that in this case, the Duke is the one with the courtesy title.

I'm more interested to know what happens if George falls in love with one of the current crop of European princesses who will one day be a Queen...

But surely the point of delaying a career as working royal is so the "little lambs" have the chance to have a real job for a few years and see how the other half live?

I'm not saying William or Harry had a typical working experience but at least they were in workplaces doing something other than the cushy gig of being a working royal. I think you're much more likely to create entitled kids if they never have to at least pretend to do a real job.

William esp with the air ambulance will have brought him into touch with ordinary people, Doctors, nurses etc who are all born with silver spoon.

Yes. Her kids will be the grandkids of a monarch so yes, they will have titles.

Not unless a change is made.

Currently only the grandchildren of the monarch on the male line are automatically titled.

Yes but the PP said that William was upset that his kids would have to be working Royals at a younger age. Why can they not have 'proper jobs' and keep them? They don't have to be 'working Royals' at all. It usually means going from doing a proper job to doing not very much at all. Its what causes many of the problems of the 'spares'. Its cruel to expect people to be tied to a life of not much consequence or importance, having had to leave a presumably fulfilling role like helicopter pilot just so down the line they become more and more surplus to requirements. They could do a day job and still go to the Baftas or charity visits. Actors, sportspeople etc aren't full time ambassadors for charities. They do it as well as having a job.

I'm more interested to know what happens if George falls in love with one of the current crop of European princesses who will one day be a Queen...
Interesting. I suspect it will not be allowed unless one of them gives up their right to the Throne. IIRC Philip had to give up all his claims to various thrones to marry TLQ