H and M - an American dynasty as an offshoot from the British Royal Family

[mids2019]

Thinking long term about H and Me lives and their children's lives where is the funding going to come from and is there a serious risk of the funding drying up? I especially think of the children who I would expect would go to a private US school and ultimately will be US citizens perhaps pursuing US jobs. There is huge competition for celebrity status in the US and no nobility as such so how do they for in? Does the link to the RF quickly become an irrelevance ?

All good points, @EdithWeston . I think you're right.

Yes, I think that was the late Queen misunderstanding what would appeal to Meghan - I don't think she's ever been involved with theatre.

In that scenario (Charles and William's deaths) Catherine would remain HRH The Princess of Wales (assuming William died at the same time as or before his father). George would be King. If he had an eldest son, the son would be Prince of Wales and if the son married a woman, his wife would be Princess of Wales.

Have I got that right? Could there be two Princesses of Wales?

You're right! That's never happened, although on many occasions there have been two Queens. I suppose Catherine would be the Dowager Princess of Wales.

I didn't know it had never happened before.

I looked it up! George II outlived his son Frederick, so his grandson George III inherited. What I'm trying to find out is how his mother, Augusta was styled, because she was never Queen.

Indeed

Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden lived in the USA for 2 years and attended Yale because it was a lower stress environment for her when she was recovering from anorexia - nobody knew or cared who Victoria Bernadotte was.

I think they're on borrowed time financially - they live a very expensive lifestyle, and all the millions of $s banded around in terms of fees from Netflix/Spotify have to include production. From the glossy mansion rent to wall to wall floral arrangements, celebrity cooks and guests, and Meghan's wardrobes/assistants, that new series won't have come cheap. Any inheritance from Diana will likely be long gone given their lifestyle, penchant for private jets, designer clothing, range rovers and huge retinue of staff/security/assistants. And quasi royal tours.

However, Charles' health appears to be precarious and I think William will cut them off financially and officially from the RF when he takes the Crown - and I think a law will be brought in regarding the Lof S so Harry and children will be voided. Then it will be interesting to see what happens.

If A and L did relocate to the UK how would they for into UK society without the offer of being working royals?. Would it be strange to have perhaps William on the throne and his nephews and niece having some position in the UK that completely distanced themselves from the workings from the royal fanily? For instance if your local library wanted A or L to open it would that be a pssibility? I think you could have real constitutional bit of gristle if A and L came to the UK.

I actually think it would be difficult not to offer positions as working royal as they have done nothing in a sense to not be offered those roles.

The irony of Harry trying to keep his children " safe" is that he is creating a future public spectacle around them. It will be natural that some people will want to see what they look like- oh they look like Harry or Meghan or whoever. I feel for these children when they finally emerge from the shadows. As to their future lives? I don't see any place for them in the UK.

George III became king in 1760, and married in 1761, so there weren't two Princesses of Wales concurrently.

What I think might happen in these circumstances today, if there were both a dowager and a current PoWess (ie William died, Charles created George PoW and is still living when George marries, and George's spouse is a woman) is that the monarch would create Catherine a Princess in her own right, so she would become HRH Princess Catherine (dowager) Princess of Wales (and no-one would ever use the last bit) and George's wife would be HRH The Princess of Wales (usually known erroneously as Princess FirstName)

Might get a bit confusing if George married a Catherine though!

Yes, @EdithWeston I just meant in terms of what Augusta was called. Very fortunate that there wasn't another Princess of Wales, though.

I could see a wealthy benefactor role for them both with seats in multiple charity boards. I don't think they will have a completely private life but in with large of the wealthy US elite. Maybe there will be a link to the celeb circuit with their mother's background but also something a bit more conservative given their royal starus.

I think Charles will be willing to find at least a moderate lifestyle for them both for the sake of the monarchy's dignity.

I think over time they will fade from public awareness unless they make an ongoing effort to stay in the public eye. Princess Margaret was a superstar like figure in the 50s and 60s but I doubt if the average person now could name or identify her children ir grandchildren. In 20 years time the Wales children will be in the spotlight getting married etc. Younger people won't know or care who 60 year old H&M are

She seemed to be referred to as both the Princess of Wales (there was none other, so no confusion, and dowager can use it with no further specification in those circs) and Princess Augusta - she was a princess by birth too (of Saxe-Gotha) and I'm really not sure if, back then, foreign prince/ssdoms had to be relinquished before marrying into the British royal family (as Phillip had do)

Thanks! I'm not sure if she had to relinquish the Saxe Coburg part, either.

Meh they will be no different to the other gaggle of celeb kids. They learn not to google or take any media too seriously. They will just be more B listers kids who will live a life of privilege. I can't see boarding school ever being on the cards. It's seen as fairly barbaric by most Americans. The two education systems really don't translate well after primary/elementary school age.

Thanks to @MagdaLenor & @EdithWeston for answering my question about titles. Interesting stuff.

Regarding A & L, I don't think they'd be invited to open a state-funded library unless they were working royals (which I don't think they will be). Any charitable work will be as private individuals (e.g. Meghan still occasionally supports the work of UK charity Smart Works).

I think it most likely that if they spend no time in the UK as children then they'll be less likely to do UK based charitable work as adults.

Charles's cousins are not working Royals and we don't yet know if any of William's will be. But if they do, it'll be because he runs out of people because H & M left. In George's generation, we can predict he'll probably have a spouse plus two siblings and maybe (but maybe not if they've modernised a bit) his siblings' spouses. A & L won't be needed (and wouldn't have been needed even if H & M had remained in the fold as working royals) just as Charles's cousins haven't been needed.

I think that's true, @Not2identifying . The Snowdon branch aren't needed, nor are the Phillips or the descendents of the Gloucesters and the Kents. Probably likewise for A and L
as you say.

Genuinely, I think Meghan would probably have been interested in being President of BAFTA rather than the National Theatre - but that was already with William, and had been for some time.

As for Archie and Lilibet, I had kind of assumed they’d have similar profiles to the children and siblings of Crown Prince Pavlos and Crown Princess Marie Chantal of Greece. Greece no longer has a monarchy, but Pavlos’ father Constantine was the last King, and Pavlos held the Crown Prince title before the family was deposed, and still uses it as a courtesy title even now, after his father’s death.

Anyway, Pavlos married a very wealthy women (Marie Chantal’s father was the founder of the DFS Duty-Free shops at airports) and their children are socialites/models/actors in US daytime soap operas/instagrammers etc. Pavlos’ younger siblings are also active in those fields, or sit on various charitable boards etc. They live a monied, but not billionaire, lifestyle in New York, London and Greece, and Marie-Chantal has a luxury children’s wear brand.

The title conversation is interesting.

If I remember correctly when King George VI died, the then Queen Consort - Queen Elizabeth retained her title but had The Queen Mother added. This was to avoid confusion between the two Queen Elizabeth’s.
It was also a diplomatic solution.

I imagine Catherine, Princess of Wales The King’s Mother would be too much of a mouth full. Catherine, Dowager Princess of Wales makes more sense.

I think A & L can grow up in relative anonymity if they, and their parents, choose. It’s clear Lily is used rather than Lilibet and they don’t have to use their titles.

Whilst unusual in the UK Princess and Prince are used as first names e.g. Princess Andre. In the US Prince and Princess are used as first names e.g. Prince the singer,

I think when MM entered the RF she saw her role akin to Diana and the PoW. The reality in marrying the 'spare' was she should have been looking towards The Duchess of York, i.e. completely irrelevant as the line of succession pushed them downwards. The DoY's two DDs are princesses, but aren't working royals so why would DC Harry's DC be any different. I cannot see a return to active royal duties for any of the Sussex family.

Catherine, if widowed after becoming Queen (consort), and if George were also married to a Catherine, could have the choice of being either HM The Doawger Queen Catherine, or HM Queen Catherine the Queen Mother.

Because she is the Queen who is the Mother of the monarch.
George’s Catherine would be either/both HM The Queen or HM Queen Catherine

There was one (Tudor?) example of ‘My Lady the King’s Mother’ as a title, but IIRC she had never been Queen

When he was born , David Armstrong Jones ( Princess Margaret’s son) was 5th in the LOS and nephew of the monarch . He is now 25th in the LOS and I doubt many people would recognise him in the street .
Archie( 6th)and Lilibet (7th) will be in the same situation ie nephew and niece of the monarch ( William) so of very limited interest or importance.

It is strange. Most people grow up wanting be famous but in A and Is case there may be a case for wanting to be less famous. If fame is attractive (and let's face it it's part of human nature) then surely A and L may want to use their titles to the max?

I think one fate is that they become a more posh version of the Beckham's children and if they do not have an outstanding natural talent then a series of manufactured jobs may await. In a sense MM is now a posh SM influencer and I wonder if that gates awaits these two young totals - Prince and Princess of Instagram?