Do you think as Camilla as the queen ?

[Rainbow321]

Hear me out , I have no problem with Camilla and never thought I would never see her as ( way back when ) as Charles wife when they married , my opinion,was they married and can rightly call herself as Duchess.
However , what I don't understand that when Queen Elizabeth was alive , her husband , Prince Phillip was always known as just that and never seen / addressed as King . Why is Camilla our queen when Phillip was never our king ? I'm confused .

You are correct. Queen is an Anglo season derived word meaning wife of the King. Then when Mary I became Queen regnant she was technically married to a King (of Spain) so I think it just slipped into use.

Plenty of Queens acted as Regent prior to this so female rule wasn't totally alien in England or Scotland.

This is how I feel.

It's no disrespect to Camilla. I think her work with woman centric issue charities such as Osteoporosis and DV is really important. QEII was Queen for my parents, mine and my children's lifetimes, it takes time to move on from that.

Queen Elizabeth II was The Queen for so long, that she became synonymous with her title and it doesn’t sound right to call a new queen the same thing.

The word "queen" is derived from a word that originally meant "woman" or "wife."

When Mary I became Queen, she was not married to Philip of Spain; when they married he was not yet King of Spain, although his father had made him King of Naples. But Mary's title as Queen of England had nothing to do with Philip being a king. However, his title as King of England derived from hers. He was made co-ruler, but his status as a monarch of England did not survive her death. Mary did become Queen (consort) of Spain when Philip acceded, and, of course, that title derived from his.

Queen as a title for a Queen regnant was in use in England before Mary I. It was used for the attempted reign of Lady Jane Grey and by the supporters of Matilda aka Maud, the daughter of Henry I.

Do you think OF Camilla as the queen?

I'm getting used to it.

Apparently, we’re not supposed to call William, “Prince William” anymore, but the “Prince of Wales”. He also has other titles. Kate is the Princess of Wales, but the late Queen never allowed her to be “Princess Catherine”. We can call her “Princess William”, but almost no one does as it sounds daft.

The Royal Family can make whatever rules it likes about names and titles, but it can’t make the public abide by them. Almost everyone seems to refer to them as Prince William and Princess Kate/ Kate Middleton.

It’s not a question of the Queen not allowing it, royal titles follow set conventions. If people refer to “Princess Kate” that’s just down to their ignorance.

Edited to say, Mine too, as I don’t know all the conventions!

The Queen could have granted William’s request for Kate to be officially known as Princess Catherine.

After all, she did this for her aunt, Princess Alice. But she chose not to.

Yes she (did and for Princess Marina too). The circumstances were slightly different, as each was widowed and their sons and daughters-in-law had acceded to the titles of the Dukes and Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester respectively. That would make the Queen’s aunts officially the Dowager Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester - titles they apparently weren’t keen on!

The Queen therefore granted each of their requests to be styled as Princess Marina and Princess Alice as a personal favour. I suppose she felt there was no need to style Kate as a Princess as the circumstances weren’t the same and she had a perfectly good title of Duchess of Cambridge?

(When did William ask the Queen this, by the way?)

Apparently just before their wedding @Serenster https://www.marieclaire.com/celebrity/royals/queen-elizabeth-refused-prince-william-request-to-make-kate-middleton-princess-catherine/

Thanks - I’d not come across that before. Technically, Kate is still not Princess Kate though and never will be (though she will likely be Queen Catherine). She’s The Princess of Wales - subtle difference, but a difference!

According to Marina Hyde, who would certainly be in a position to know, whenever a story is attributed to "close friends" or a "royal courtier" or "palace staff" etc it's always completely made up.

It was on quite a few sites when I googled it. Did all the sites copy from one another?

I’m laughing at this thread. I don’t think of Camilla as ‘the queen’ but that’s because my brain immediately jumps to queen Elizabeth when I hear that title, and it will probably take me about 70 years to stop doing that. Similarly ‘king Charles’ is still Prince Charles in my head!

QE2 is a boat 😂.

The situations with Marina and Alice are somewhat different. Marina was a princess and HRH by birth (of Greece and Denmark) so she was going back to a designation that she had had up until her marriage. Alice was a commoner (although of noble birth) so it was unusual for her to be allowed a designation usually limited in the UK to princesses by birth. I think that the late Queen did that in part so that her two aunts by marriage would have equal titles in widowhood.

I do remember reading at the time that William wanted Catherine to be known as Princess Catherine.

Probably!

No, plus Marina Hyde is not an authority. One of the sources for certain journalists is a cousin , a minor royal. That could have come from them.

She offered it to Princess Alice to give her the same courtesy as she'd given her other Aunt Princess Marina when she was widowed.

Rather than be known by the Dowager Duchess title she allowed her Aunt to return to being Princess Marina, which she was (Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark) before marrying the Duke of Kent.

Much later she offered Princess Alice the same courtesy. It's not remotely common in the British RF to allow married in women to be Princess Firstname.

Marina had only been married and no longer known as Princess Marina for 8 years when she was widowed at just 35. She was viewed as being very young to be saddled with a Dowager title.

Yes and she was a Princess by birth, after all.

No. I think’but the queen died… oh yes, Camilla.’ It takes time.

I’ve got to the point where it if the verb is present/future tense - the Queen is in Swansea today - then I go straight to Camilla.

But if it’s past tense - The unusual hobby the Queen kept secret for 20 years - then I still see QEII first.

Yes, because she is.

Just as I think of Keir Starmer as Prime Minister.

It's a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion.

True, but she didn't have to use "dowager" until her son married. She was known as HRH The Duchess of Kent until then. With "Dowager" on the horizon when the Duke of Kent was engaged, I'm sure she thought to herself, "whoa, I'm still a princess, let's go back to that, please."

It does seem a bit silly and very old fashioned for princesses by marriage to be known by their husband's titles, especially when there is no dukedom, as in Princess Michael and Princess Richard (as Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester was styled prior to her husband inheriting the dukedom.)

The UK should follow the practice of most other European royal houses and use Princess Firstname for princesses by marriage.

It does seem a bit silly and very old fashioned for princesses by marriage to be known by their husband's titles, especially when there is no dukedom, as in Princess Michael and Princess Richard (as Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester was styled prior to her husband inheriting the dukedom.)

I believe the current Duke of Gloucester was offered a title on his marriage, but turned it down as they were happy with their planned quiet life. It must have been such a shocker for them to only have a couple of months married with that plan.

I think with Princess Michael they just felt no need to give him a ducal title to give her something better since at the time marrying her took him out of the line of succession.

It is a very odd, and old fashioned, tradition. It'll be interesting to see what they do going forward in those kind of situations.