Prince Andrew thoughts

[Reduceddutiesboredom]

Maybe he’ll stop hiding behind his mummy now…

I’m intrigued by the people who are looking to absolve Andrew and place blame on Virginia. In their eyes, Virginia seems to be the criminal and poor Andrew is just being harassed for no reason
I have seen and heard this time and time again. People ( often older males) just don't get it. They don't understand grooming and trafficking.
They just think it's a good time girl that now wants a payout. They don't understand about being manipulated, being threatened, being used by people with more power than the victim has. Grooming and trafficking can be done relatively simply ( small town local gangs) or be a highly complex and powerful set up with corrupt but influential people.

I am particularly disheartened about the earlier comment on this thread which basically is ' she was 17, so what?🙅🏻'
Absolutely dreadful.

At the time of the Maitlis interview PA's stance could be characterised as complete denial. It didn't happen, I didn't see any of it, I have no recollection of meeting her, I wasn't there, It isn't me in the picture I was at the pizza place.

I don't think anyone believed him but if he wanted to reclaim his position and reputation that was probably the only defence that, if successful, would have allowed him to do that.

Now his lawyers seem to be taking a different tack. VG has no right to sue him because of that previous agreement and anyway she has no moral right because she was involved in procuring etc etc.

Even if that second line of defence succeeds in court and he gets the case thrown out he will not have succeeded in clearing his name and the stink of this case will follow him around forever.

I cant understand why he and his lawyers are taking this line. Even if it succeeds it will not achieve what he needs. If he thought that there could not be any proof that he did what he is accused of and that it is a case of one persons word against another, I can't see how it makes sense to take that line. It smacks of, 'Yes it is true but for technical reasons you can't get me for it'.

@meercat23 I think Andrew and his legal advisers must realise that there is no way he can rehabilitate his public image - that has gone for good. And if so, if clearing your name is totally off the table, why not fight the war of attrition to get the case against him dropped or ended by the court? He literally has nothing to lose in trying to do so, and much to gain (e.g. no judgment against him, no compensation to be paid).

Also, legally speaking, any win is a win. getting a case thrown out for technical reasons is as much a victory for your client as any other, and considerably lower risk than going through a trial, where anything can, and frequently does, happen.

I cant understand why he and his lawyers are taking this line.

That's because you are a normal person, meercat23, and not a narcissistic fuckwit like PA. First reaction of the narcissist (sorry for using this word again, but PA is one) is to deny deny deny. Their egos cannot contemplate that they might be in the wrong. Never mind cannot sweat, narcs cannot apologise.

PA is the perfect embodiment of the patriarchal entitlement that notacooldad is referring to.

VG is very brave. She's calling out everything that happened, and is even getting sued for defamation by Rina, another girl who was also procuring for JE but doesn't want to admit her involvement (I'm still reading about this one, the Rina person sounds just as twisted as GM).
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/epstein-virginia-giuffre-rina-oh-lawsuit-b1948384.html?r=88414

Oh yes. I read about Rina Oh. Maybe she will feel better in suing like it never happened. I can only presume it's shame if I'm being nice about it. She says she didn't bring in dozens of girls, only three. But also claims she didn't know JE was having sex with underage girls

[quote Serenster]@meercat23 I think Andrew and his legal advisers must realise that there is no way he can rehabilitate his public image - that has gone for good. And if so, if clearing your name is totally off the table, why not fight the war of attrition to get the case against him dropped or ended by the court? He literally has nothing to lose in trying to do so, and much to gain (e.g. no judgment against him, no compensation to be paid).

Also, legally speaking, any win is a win. getting a case thrown out for technical reasons is as much a victory for your client as any other, and considerably lower risk than going through a trial, where anything can, and frequently does, happen.[/quote]
Totally agree

pmk

[quote Serenster]@meercat23 I think Andrew and his legal advisers must realise that there is no way he can rehabilitate his public image - that has gone for good. And if so, if clearing your name is totally off the table, why not fight the war of attrition to get the case against him dropped or ended by the court? He literally has nothing to lose in trying to do so, and much to gain (e.g. no judgment against him, no compensation to be paid).

Also, legally speaking, any win is a win. getting a case thrown out for technical reasons is as much a victory for your client as any other, and considerably lower risk than going through a trial, where anything can, and frequently does, happen.[/quote]
But in how he fights can either help his image or hurt it even further. Right now the way he is fighting is making matters worse.

but how* he fights …

There is hardly any information about this on line. That is trial dates and so on. Seems powerful forces are at work to keep the press quiet.

Seems powerful forces are at work to keep the press quiet.

Truest post on entire thread. I wonder if GM will end up the same way as her dad.

[quote Why2why]@ancientgran do you realise she was groomed and a minor one in the courts? So if anyone should be held accountable for the abuse of the girls she recruited, it isn’t her.[/quote]
I do realise that, I was thinking of another girl abused, maybe brought in by VG and now on hard times. I have had professional contact with young girls in prostitution and one of the ways lots of them coped was drug taking, it is a horrible slippery slope and for some it ends up with them on the streets and eventually with their mental and physical health damaged.

So so this girl VG might have brought into the business is now that ex drug addict, ex prostitute, with damaged mental and physical health. She sees her kids living in substandard housing going without many things their friends have. She wasn't abused by PA, maybe the man who abused her has gone bankrupt or maybe she never knew his name, who does she sue?

So she can't sue JE or the abuser but she sees VG with millions (I assume she'd get millions if she won) and wonders if some of that should be hers. Would you blame her? I don't think I could. I'm not saying she should blame VG but she needs some help.

All what ifs obviously.

@Roussette

Yes. She has set up an Organisation called Victims Refuse Silence. And dozens of other victims, not just her, have filed lawsuits.

It's worth watching the netflix series 'Jeffrey Epstein, Filthy Rich'. She is in part of it with Maria Farmer who was treated appallingly. If the FBI had listened to her back in 1996, there would not have been these victims.

Good that she set that up although I'm not sure what it does, does it offer practical support to victims? It's website is under construction so no information there. I did find a report that it's annual income is below 50k but I'm not sure how much she is putting into it.

I imagine there will be other victims who can't sue anyone, abuser penniless or dead for example. Who do they get help from, who do they sue?

@ancientgran they shouldn’t need to sue anybody, they should be paid appropriate levels of compensation from the state as victims of crime from which the state failed to protect them. I assume the US has such a system, although I know from personal experience that our version here in the UK, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority is a joke.

But I am not sure why you think VG is responsible for helping these victims when she herself is a victim? VG is already taking on the world (at least I’m sure that’s how it feels), so I fail to understand why JE’s other victims are also her responsibility? Yes she may have ‘recruited’ some of them, but she did so in the role as victim, not perpetrator, so absolutely no blame should ever fall at her door. She cannot and should not therefore be sued and any work she may do to support other woman should be her choice, and only her choice. Any money she may be awarded is hers and hers alone. She owes nobody anything. We all however owe her a huge debt for steadfastly standing up for herself now, against vicious personal attack, when in her past absolutely nobody was there for her. I for one would love to meet her to tell her this. I think she’s a hero

Many many sued the estate of JE and were awarded damages

I think she’s a hero Your definition of 'hero' is a bit different from mine then. Brave maybe

A hero is someone who you admire for doing something brave or good - VG fits that description perfectly in my view

@ancientgran, you seem to be more comfortable examining the actions of the victim, putting her on trial rather than examining Prince Andrew’s action. His actions should be examined on their own ‘merit’. What does Virginia’s website, the access other victims launching lawsuits, etc have to do with Andrew’s actions - presumably he was not coerced so they are his actions that he is fully accountable for.

Joining you from the other thread

edition.cnn.com/2021/11/03/world/prince-andrew-lawsuit-status-conference/index.html
(CNN)A Manhattan federal judge said Britain's Prince Andrew may face a trial date between September and December of 2022 in a civil case involving a woman who is suing him for allegedly sexually abusing her when she was a minor.

Thanks Duncin

That's interesting....

[quote Why2why]@ancientgran, you seem to be more comfortable examining the actions of the victim, putting her on trial rather than examining Prince Andrew’s action. His actions should be examined on their own ‘merit’. What does Virginia’s website, the access other victims launching lawsuits, etc have to do with Andrew’s actions - presumably he was not coerced so they are his actions that he is fully accountable for.[/quote]
Absolutely. But by choosing to bring her lawsuit against Prince Andrew Virginia has opened the door to her own past actions being also on trial. This is a “he said, she said” case where the jury will have to decide who they believe is most credible. Each side will be bringing up everything they can to discredit the testimony of the other - for Andrew that includes his car crash interview too, for Virginia, every previous statement she has made in whatever forum about these events.

(And because I’m sure plenty of people will say that’s not fair - well, it may not be. But this is a civil case, not a criminal case, and it was entirely Virginia’s choice to bring it and put herself in this position, no one else’s. She will have been warned by her lawyers on what she could expect).

As for the timetable, the judge set out the forward timetable for the case at the most recent pre-trial hearing. Those timetabling orders may be met, but more often than not they get extended and extended and extended….

Serenster, what causes the extensions? Is it mostly lawyers asking for more time? Delaying tactics for the sake of it, or am I too harsh in asking that?

[quote Why2why]@ancientgran, you seem to be more comfortable examining the actions of the victim, putting her on trial rather than examining Prince Andrew’s action. His actions should be examined on their own ‘merit’. What does Virginia’s website, the access other victims launching lawsuits, etc have to do with Andrew’s actions - presumably he was not coerced so they are his actions that he is fully accountable for.[/quote]
No I'm not. I'm just not focusing on one women when there are so many victims.

It maybe because of the contact I had with prostitutes in my work that makes me feel that millions for one or even 10 or 20 isn't the answer. I knew prostitutes who were at the bottom of the pile, they drank or took drugs to cope with their life which meant they eventually were less appealing to customers so end up on the streets, I knew one woman at the end of her working life who would accept a customer for the silver coins in his pocket, I mean 50p. I can tell you she got no help, no support for her on social media or anywhere else, she wasn't as appealing as someone like VG who is attractive and articulate. I would love that woman to get some help, the sad truth is she is probably dead.

I'd also have liked the teenager who was in labour while servicing a customer or the young mums panicking when arrested because they'd be late for the school pick up to be helped out of that way of life.

One that brought me to tears was one of our locals who was murdered, her little girl made a statement about mummy and who she left the house with. I would defy anyone to read that without crying, the poor little mite was unwanted by her father so went into care, her little sister was claimed by her father so she lost her mother, her sibling and her home all in one go.

The robbings, rapings and beatings would be too many to relate as well as other murders.

So I suppose like everyone I am a product of my experiences. I'd love it if any man who had been involved with JE to have to pay into a fund so that it could support many, many women. Not very glamorous and probably not worth headlines but I'm entitled to my feelings.

@Roussette

Many many sued the estate of JE and were awarded damages

Well that is positive, do you know if there is money left? I wonder if there is enough to go round for all the woman.

Oh yes. He was a multi multi millionaire.