Breeder turned us down

[Sellingseashells]

Spoken to a breeder last night about pups due later this year. Was recommended by a friend.i though it was going well but breeder said no. Said he don’t sell to people with children. DC are 10 and 4. Dog savvy.

i know the breeder doesn’t have to sell to us, but I’m really upset. Is it worth trying again? What do I do?

A sensible breeder! How refreshing. I think op that you might have expressed a very specific preference for a certain type of dog to the breeder. That breeder will know full well that “breed” is only part of a dogs personality. And that dogs, even of the same breed and parentage can have very different personalities. If you buy or adopt a dog, you have to accept what comes and do your very best for them with training, care and attention. You cannot buy a “perfect” dog.

Absolutely agree!!!!

if youve got a child or a cat forget it -

I volunteered in a rescue and some of the dogs were there years because they were so picky

@SpanielsGalore Cannot agree more with you, though you'll not be surprised to hear that!

There's a thing called "Cocker rage syndrome" where the dog suddenly bites for no reason. It's much rarer than it used to be, because responsible breeders have stopped breeding from lines where it was present, but I believe it still occurs.

My DM had worked as a dog groomer and at a quarantine kennels when she was younger. She used to say that she'd only been bitten 5 times, but that every time the dog was a cocker (this was decades ago, 1950s). Then one day in the 90s, she was walking through a market and a dog nipped her ankle as she passed: another cocker.

They're lovely dogs, but I'm not sure I'd want one. Those from working lines seem to be steadier in temperament, but that maybe because the ones I've met have mostly been in homes where they are actually worked, like they should be.

I know a few breeders, of various breeds, and all the sensible ones won't sell to homes where there are young children.

I have to agree sensible breeder. When we had our litter of puppies we had strict rules to who we would and wouldn't sell too. Anyone who wanted to reserve a certain colour without meeting the puppies first was an instant no. I would not have sold to people with young children. Puppies are extremely bitey and hard work up untill around 3. Throw in young children and a lot of puppies are given up.

Ideopathic rage - is present in multiple breeds, not just cockers.

Things did improve for a while but then cockers and particularly working cockers became super popular with puppy farmers and we are seeing an increase in cases reported to be rage - though in my opinion (as a behaviourist..) 99% of these are serious resource guarding issues made horrific and incurable by the rise in aversive physical punishment based training methods. It is still worrying that we are seeing an increase in spaniels (and cockerpoos!) that are displaying maladaptive guarding - ie, guarding something that is not a resource - guarding that involves an offensive attack, vs a defensive vocal warning, guarding behaviour triggered when the owner is a long distance away...

Unfortunately shitty advice still abounds - in one 8 hour shift I have had four people (and it is a quiet day today) telling me they have been advised to slap a growling puppy, remove what it has in its mouth, scruff and shake it or yell NO in its face...

All of which will serve to make the puppy less communicative and more dangerous in future, but all these people had absolutely been told this was necessary to prevent resource guarding!

I can understand why you’re disheartened, but this is a responsible breeder, who is correct with what they have said regarding dogs and children. Though, this isn’t to say it can’t be done! I got my first dog when my youngest was three and my gosh, it was hard work, but if you’re prepared to put that work in then you’ll be okay! My youngest is now ten and we recently got a very large breed and it has again, been a lot of hard work, but worth it.

I can see it’s your first dog from a comment you added, is there a particular reason you want a cocker?

it could be worth speaking to the breeder again, BUT, not to try and sway him, but he may have contacts who breed cockers who would let them go to a family environment.

plenty of recue centers do you need to find the right one
as I said in my post above rescue I work with had 56 puppies in march majority rehomed to families with kids some young kids

Our working cocker is our 4th dog after having GSDs and a terrier, working cockers are now my favourite breed but they are hard work. Thankfully we no longer have young children as he is a hell beast - he is the most beautiful dog and so affectionate but so needy, they don't call them a velcro breed for no reason! He is 2 and still mental and I can't see him calming down any time soon as he is really high energy and needs a lot of stimulation, long off lead runs are essential for him. I wouldnt have him around children as although he is lovely to everyone, he is very boisterous. . Definitely not a first dog, ours had already had 2 homes by 6 months, we are his third and final! My friend has a show cocker, who is younger but much more chilled.

I got our dog when our youngest DC was 6. In hindsight, ideally, we probably should have waited a year or so, however, our dog is an Australian labradoodle and brilliant with DC, her mum was /is a therapy dog in primary schools. That's why we went for that breed.

We specifically went with a breeder who had DC in the household so the puppies would be used to DC from birth.

The first year was hard work but now we have a fantastic dog and a great addition to the family.

Why on earth would you get a dog from a breeder that says its dogs are not good with children?!

It doesn't matter how much you know about the breed, or how careful you would be with the children and the dog; the breeder is literally telling you their dogs are bad with kids.

Why would you deliberately put your children at risk of serious harm? Why would you risk the dog being put down because it's reacted in a way the breeder has literally predicted?

Either you don't care about your children or you don't care about the dog.

We talked to about 6 breeders before choosing one for our dog. Two wouldn't sell to us as I hadn't had a dog before, two sounded nuts and then we had a choice of the other two and chose the one whose litter fitted in time wise.

Adopt don't shop.

I suggest a miniature schnauzer for kids, OP. We have a 12 week old MS and I have a 10yr old child. They’re the best of friends and they’re amazing dogs for kids and just the right amount of energetic. They’re also hypoallergenic and don’t moult. Daft as a brush too and look fantastic after they’ve been groomed!
We got him from a Kennel Club registered (& very well experienced) breeder and have his five generation certificate. He’s the love of our lives 🐾

Cockers and springers are rarely prone to random rage episodes and not the most easy going breeds in general IME. As a previous owner I'm sure you realise this. My sister has one and she's never bitten but can be very grumpy and snappy. I'm cautious with my dd around her. My dd also had a horrible incident with a relative's springer when she was only 18 months old. She was doing all the right things and staying away from him but she was toddling past him when asked to and not tormenting the dog but tripped and fell into him. He really snapped and opened his mouth to bite her face. Luckily relative was nearby and quickly pulled him away. It was horrific enough though even though no injury! I wouldn't personally keep one as a pet around young kids. Labradors have a much nicer temperament IME. Maybe this is a sign for you to reconsider your breed choice

Nice and easy for you to say until you’ve tried to adopt with kids under 12! The rescues just won’t have it! Unless they know for a fact that a dog is good with kids (very rarely happens that they know it for a fact) then they mark them as “not suitable for kids” and whenever they do get a dog that’s definitely good with kids, they have a huuuuuuuuuuge waiting list of previous adopters who they turn to first. We were checking everywhere within 100 mile radius for 5 years and ZILCH. Nada. Not even a suggestion of any dog.

We approached 3 adoption centres. They all said no as we had primary aged DC.

Op I honestly have to say don’t get a cocker- I’ll never forget as a puppy our 16 yo panicking trying to bat him off as he jumped and snapped over and over again. Had he been one of the younger ones he’d have been hurt. They’re dogs for a much older house. As it is he goes into another room/ outside when kids come over to play, he’s gotten out of biting, but when hyper/ around nervous kids is a little tear away (and yes he’s a legend and I wouldn’t give him up, he goes to training etc- cockers are just very excitable dogs)

Well maybe just wait a bit? Your kids will survive. There's obvs a reason why they won't consider young children. Animals aren't a consumer item.

So the kid fell ON the dog and he air snapped and she was pulled out of his way.

If he had intended to bite her, he would have - no human is faster than a dogs bite.

I'd be very pleased, if this were MY dog, that he'd really inhibited his response despite being startled and possibly hurt! (It wouldn't be my dog as my dog would have been in a pen or in another room if there were a toddler here. Not worth the risk, to either party.)

But this is exactly the reason I don't recommend dogs and very small children - people expect dogs to tolerate being fallen on, sat on, booted, grabbed etc etc, without a single reaction. It isn't reasonable, the dog will absolutely fail and be put in situations where failure is possible as a result of unfair expectations (of both child and dog).

I think it's sad that children wouldn't be able to grow up with a dog if that's what the family want. My Mum and Dad already had a dog when I was born and when she died when I was about 3 they got an Old English Sheepdog who I adored. It's possible for children and dogs to live alongside each other. Obviously it has to be the right dog, but rescues seem to have a blanket ban.

I also think in many cases rescues would just find another reason not to rehome.

@WiddlinDiddlin
But this is exactly the reason I don't recommend dogs and very small children - people expect dogs to tolerate being fallen on, sat on, booted, grabbed etc etc, without a single reaction. It isn't reasonable, the dog will absolutely fail and be put in situations where failure is possible as a result of unfair expectations (of both child and dog).
I agree, it is often unfair on the dogs.
Back in the Dark Ages when I was a kid, if you did something stupid, like poke the dog with a stick, or clumsy, like tread on its tail, and it snapped at you or bit you, the adults were pretty much guaranteed to tell you that it was your fault, not Fido's.

O

Try a rescue centre, save a life.

I agree to an extent. It was a lesson to me as a parent that however strict and careful you're being these things happen and you need to literally be right there next to your young child if they're interacting with a dog. She was really quite a way away from the dog and just unluckily went flying across the room. Not the dog or my dd's fault and in hindsight yes dog should have been in a different room or a cage. However I can say pretty confidently that I know lots of other dogs who wouldn't have reacted that way. My parent's labrador would never have done that and my friends have a newfie who would probably just have rolled over for a belly rub. Yes dogs shouldn't have to tolerate children mistreating them but could you honestly say you can avoid any kind of accidents/contact between a dog and child however careful you are? You need to do your research and choose family friendly breeds and then be responsible. That's the point I'm making to OP

To be fair we got a cocker when I was a child and he used to bite me.. not necessarily in a full aggressive way, but in a dominating way if that makes sense. He also bit a few visitors to the house that were known well to us and used to walk straight in the front door