Shock collars have been banned in England

[IngGenius]

Shock collars will be banned from February 2024 in England.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dog-electric-collar-ban-b2329041.html

I think the argument for shock collars is getting pretty desperate if the need to be able to open poo bags is a reason for using one
That WASN'T what I said. I said it was one of the reasons why I have stock-trained my dogs (not using an e-collar). And if you've never had a lead yanked out of your hand during a moment of inattention by a suddenly excited dog, or been almost pulled over by one as you bend down to scoop shit, well, good for you. But I'm well aware of the mantra that management fails. And also aware that sheep get out onto footpaths all the sodding time.

The personal attacks that the group have made on personal individuals
People who use e-collars and aversives have been called 'cunts' on this thread. Like that, you mean?
Or like the way the then-chair of the APDT (an organisation which is opposed to using aversion, ever) went after Michael Shikashio (force free trainer) for going on Ivan Balabanov's podcast? Because Ivan trains using e-collars (and has some of the most happy and fulfilled dogs you could hope to see). He uses the e-collars to proof behaviours after loads of relationship building, play and positive reinforcement. The APDT man was so toxic the APDT removed him from his post.

Death threats are never acceptable (and wasn't aware any had been made) but 'berating organisations'? That's fine, provided it is measured and rational.

The whole debate is utterly poisonous, and it's not helped by the force-free famous like Zak George accusing balanced trainers of misogyny (which he did a few months back, blithely assuming that they're all blokes).

So civil debate would appreciated by both sides. Not calling people 'cunts' would be a good start.

Excellent news. I hope our Scottish Govt also does the same but sadly at the moment they seem to busy looking for receipts for camper vans and ways to put rapists in female prisons.

I own gundogs and work them. I am well aware that there a several old fashioned trainers still out there who think that hurting/punishing dogs is the best way to train them but thankfully this is dying out. It is a fact that some gundog trainers have been very slow to adapt to dog friendly methods and so some may well use these devices to hurt dogs to make them compliant. Sad thing is that most gundogs are naturally compliant breeds who want to please. A fearful dog is not a happy dog.

Yes it's a very stupid argument.

Because some of us live in places where sheep/ deer/ hares can turn up at any moment. And we want our dogs to have off-lead freedom. Literally, unless I hire an enclosed field at a tenner a time, there is nowhere within 15 minutes drive where I do not risk one or all of those.

There's no inherent right for your dogs to have "off lead freedom" though - if it's not safe or there's livestock around then you use a lead - to me, that's just basic common sense, no matter how well-trained you think your dog is.

I'm also not so desperate to have my dog off the lead that I'm willing to use "mild aversion" or eCollars on him 🤷‍♀️

There seems to be a bit of a running theme on here that keeping your dog on a lead is somehow really cruel and unfair, but shocking them or using aversion training on them is somehow acceptable - which makes absolutely no sense to me.

If I want my high-prey drive dog to go off the lead then I just take him somewhere where he can be off-lead safely. I don't feel the need to shock him or scare him or hurt him.

There seems to be a bit of a running theme on here that keeping your dog on a lead is somehow really cruel and unfair, but shocking them or using aversion training on them is somehow acceptable - which makes absolutely no sense to me.
From my POV, with high-drive dogs, they need the chance to fulfil their genetic drives: I think providing that is one of the basics of dog ownership. For a minimal amount of aversion, they reap a lifetime of off-lead freedom, which massively improves their welfare. To be kept on lead virtually all the time when out would seriously frustrate them and cause a lot of issues (I know what one is like if she gets limited freedom and inadequate time spent on training and mental stimulation). You have to weigh these things over the lifetime of the dog, which is what welfare scientists do.

Why is the only option though? Why is it so essential to have your dog off lead around livestock? Most people just use leads.
I've discussed several times why 'just use a lead' is a facile approach in many circumstances. Of course I use a bloody lead when my dogs are in a field with someone else's sheep. But I want a dog who is safe if we encounter unexpected sheep on the footpath or the lead is dropped or broken or yanked out of my hand. I try and think about the sheep in all this too, so I want a dog who won't run up and down a fence line by a footpath scaring lambs, or strain at the lead barking when she sees sheep.

I'm of the school of thought that will always use positive reinforcement first, and in preference to anything else, but I don't see the point of chucking tools out of the box that have valuable uses.

From my POV, with high-drive dogs, they need the chance to fulfil their genetic drives: I think providing that is one of the basics of dog ownership. For a minimal amount of aversion, they reap a lifetime of off-lead freedom, which massively improves their welfare. To be kept on lead virtually all the time when out would seriously frustrate them and cause a lot of issues (I know what one is like if she gets limited freedom and inadequate time spent on training and mental stimulation). You have to weigh these things over the lifetime of the dog, which is what welfare scientists do.

Well, my opinion is that if you can't give your dog adequate off-lead time without resorting to electric shocks or aversion training, you shouldn't have a dog in the first place.

“From my POV, with high-drive dogs, they need the chance to fulfil their genetic drives: I think providing that is one of the basics of dog ownership. For a minimal amount of aversion, they reap a lifetime of off-lead freedom, which massively improves their welfare. To be kept on lead virtually all the time when out would seriously frustrate them and cause a lot of issues (I know what one is like if she gets limited freedom and inadequate time spent on training and mental stimulation). You have to weigh these things over the lifetime of the dog, which is what welfare scientists do. “

But again, that’s a false dichotomy... I’ve had one dog that was virtually always on lead and that was because he was potentially dangerous to humans, he still got off lead time, but yes that was very limited and controlled. That though was a complicated situation because it was also involving balancing his needs for exercise with the medical issues that caused the aggression and nothing at all to do with prey drive.

Dogs that’ll chase sheep and or wildlife though, from experience of having them... tbh, it’s not a huge deal, you have to put a bit more effort into finding somewhere they can be completely loose, some walks where a dog with reliable recall could be loose need a trailing longline and more effort from you to keep aware of what’s around you and some walks would be on lead no matter what dog you had.

Current dog doesn’t have a particularly high prey drive, but he’s a rescue with bad socialisation so can have dodgy recall round dogs, or things he thinks could be dogs... we disagree over whether horses or deer want to meet him.

I can usually predict which bits of walks dogs will be on, horses are in fields, mostly, but occasionally they’re being ridden, deer do what they want.

So, he’s on lead for some places, a longline for other and then off for other bits.

Sometimes I can’t be bothered so I drive to somewhere he’ll be mostly off lead, sometimes I take him into a town where he’s on lead only so he can see traffic and things.

🤷‍♀️

But I want a dog who is safe if we encounter unexpected sheep on the footpath or the lead is dropped or broken or yanked out of my hand.

Admittedly I live in an urban area which is very different. We occasionally see unexpected cats which my dog gets very excited about, I have a good grip on my lead at all times so it doesn't get pulled out of my hands (she's 26kg and strong). I'd never consider shocking her to stop her killing cats or upsetting them.

Yes something to celebrate.

More dead sheep.

More dead dogs from either being shot by the farmer protecting his sheep or being handed to full shelters.

Yes they do kill dogs in England when the shelter is full, that's ok though, right?

E Collars not shock collars btw, have been proven to averse dogs from chasing and killing sheep tell me what force free method has the ability to stop a 50kg dog from following it's instinct?

Tell me can you stop a 50kg dog from chasing sheep when its just on a lead?

The average idiot (im sorry, owner) i see these days with their cockapoo/doodle etc etc cant even control it on the end of an extendable lead (or worse off lead) while they shout its ok hes friendly, he just wants to say hello to everyone. Translation: i cant be bothered/dont know how to train this dog so you can deal with the bad manners instead.

There's a rise in dogs attacking sheep where the ecollar has been banned already in Wales so a few minutes of being uncomfortable is worse than being shot and losing their life, really?

It's uncomfortable for the dog not painful unlike erm say being shot but again once conditioned doesn't need to be used all the time...

I agree they shouldnt be sold to just anybody the tool behind the tool etc.

Also tell me why this ban is not on the military dogs?? So they're saying military dogs can't be trained without one so they're exempt. Makes sense. Thought it was barbaric but not for the tough military dogs just the pansy pet dogs.

“Tell me can you stop a 50kg dog from chasing sheep when its just on a lead? “

Of course, I have done, I’ve no disability to stop me, why would I not be able to?

I’m actually amazed anyone manages to walk down a street with a dog without it being run over or a cat being chased with how difficult to use or easy to break some people seem to think leads are tbh.

Nevermind walking them in rural areas with livestock.

Translation: i cant be bothered/dont know how to train this dog so you can deal with the bad manners instead.

One could argue that not being able to control dogs around livestock could be a badly trained dog. Relying on shock collars instead of correct training and understanding your dogs body language isn't great training either.

People in more urban areas don't experience snapped leads or being unable to correctly hold a lead, they understand when/where to allow a dog off lead.

Living rurally doesn't mean you can automatically have your dog off lead everywhere when you can't control it either.

Also tell me why this ban is not on the military dogs??

It should be.

Absolute bollocks. I have a fully working line German shepherd who is very reactive, has very strong prey drive and herding instinct. I've managed to train him to be 100% trustworthy off lead, his recall is wonderful. I have never even entertained the thought of a shock collar.
If your dog can't be trusted off lead, do t let him off lead!

You can't say your dogs recall is bulletproof, without distractions. It's not bulletproof at all then!

Muzzle your dog if it's this dangerous, Jesus!

It's called positive reinforcement. You teach then that is a positive thing with praise and high value reward.

But giving them an electric shock in varying degrees is fine? 🤦🏻‍♀️
It's laziness, that's what it is!

If you can’t keep hold of the lead of a 50kg dog then you shouldn’t have a 50kg dog - and yes I have had one in the past .

But not everyone will know where they can or cnat let the dog off. Someone might come across an empty field and think my dogs recall is ok, no ones around off it goes. Dog picks up a scent follows it find a field full of sheep and chases, not necessarily attacks obviously but the worry is enough. Now the owner catches up sees the dogs chasing calls it back with the lur of a biscuit or sausage or treat of choice suddenly the the usual treat isnt so valuable anymore to the dog he's having way more fun with his new toy.

I get it if people have used the collar know it inside out and form an opinion but the dogs trust click baity headlines cruel shock collar traumatises dogs is enough for people to close their mind and couldnt possiby hurt the furbaby. Theres different levels people have used them on themselves to demonstrate the level of uncomfortableness?

Ive seen ecollar trainers successfully train dogs to be around sheep off lead not bothered by them not unhappy or shaking in a corner just out enjoying their freedom but have yet to see a force free, positive only successfully do this maybe im looking in the wrong places?

Its done now the world of dog ownership has gone to shit anyway with all the attacks that seem to be on the rise kids, other dogs my own elderly dog was attacked a couple of years ago and the police didnt care, dog warden not bothered they were too busy so isnt surprising theres more the whole thing needs an overhaul not just mindlessly banning 1 tool

But its not and theres obviously very good reason. If its so barbaric and cruel then they would have banned it on all animals.

As far as i understand the people training military dogs/police dogs are pretty good trainers, who understand dogs, behaviour, drive, body language etc they have to be of course for what the dog will be used for but even they need ecollars so their argument for banning them doesnt wash if they still need them for the super duper elite working dogs for government organisations.

It’s nothing to do with them not being cruel, it’s that they care less about the welfare of the dog than whether the dog is still useable.

If you’ve a training issue with a pet dog, you can work round it, with a military one you’d need to retire it and start again, they already have to retire them fairly often as it is. So they’re reserving the right to use harsh methods.

It’s not ethical, but they’re basically tools.

“But not everyone will know where they can or cnat let the dog off. Someone might come across an empty field and think my dogs recall is ok, no ones around off it goes. Dog picks up a scent follows it find a field full of sheep and chases, not necessarily attacks obviously but the worry is enough. Now the owner catches up sees the dogs chasing calls it back with the lur of a biscuit or sausage or treat of choice suddenly the the usual treat isnt so valuable anymore to the dog he's having way more fun with his new toy. “

If they don’t have good enough judgement to know you don’t go wandering in random fields and not consider the possibility that livestock are likely to be near... then why do you think they’ve got good enough judgement to use a shock collar?

Again, people are too stupid to be sensible is a really bad reason to advocate shock collars.

Livestock are not invisible nor quiet actually. They leave signs.

Ive walked high drive working dogs in the countryside, mostly offlead for 20 years. Honestly it’s been no drama with a combination of good recall and vigilance. I’ve never needed to resort to a shock collar to do this. Just harness and long or short lead clipped on on the odd field. Most people I know do the same.

“But not everyone will know where they can or cnat let the dog off. Someone might come across an empty field and think my dogs recall is ok, no ones around off it goes.

These people probably won't be using an e collar either. I go to more rural areas and use my judgement, when there's conservation areas asking to put dogs on lead mine goes on a lead. I don't think my dog is special and can be off lead everywhere. It's not difficult.

Dogs don't have to be off lead, I genuinely don't get why people living rurally can't grasp the concept of dogs being on lead. You might think a walk is less fun or your dog needs off lead exercise, but if the area isn't safe then don't resort to electrocuting it.

If you can't control a 50kg dog with a high prey drive then research different breeds.