Shock collars have been banned in England

[IngGenius]

Shock collars will be banned from February 2024 in England.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dog-electric-collar-ban-b2329041.html

For all those saying, do it all with positive reinforcement, can I remind you that the BSAVA's own behavioural manual, which based entirely on positive reinforcement, says that their methods offer only a 'fair' prognosis for stock chasing. This implies that some dogs DO need aversion to bring them away from the chase. If they don't, then why can't the vet behaviourists offer a reliable course of behavioural modification to fix the issue? This is a really key question.

Your average pet dog should be on a lead around livestock regardless of whether they can be brought away from the chase.

There's no need for any of them to be shocked by eCollars as a decent owner will ensure they're never in a position where they can chase in the first place. That's what decent leads and harnesses are for.

My dog has a high prey drive - so I keep him on a double-ended secure lead when we're in the countryside (which is everyday as we live there) and that lead is shortened and held at my side just as an added precaution if we're anywhere near sheep or livestock.

Statement from BSAVA condoning use of shock collars and aversive training methods.

BSAVA training manual was written by the people involved with the Lincoln study

https://www.bsava.com/position-statement/aversive-training-methods/

Looks like a great list of 8... BUT
Two of them are based on the Lincoln study, which I said has been widely critiqued (China et al 2020 and Cooper et al 2014).

That leaves 6. Of those,
Vieira de Castro et al, I've read this one. No control group, samples not matched, poor blinding. Bad science, again.
Todd: So far as I can see (I can't access the full paper) it's a discussion, not actual research
Masson et al, 2018: survey of owners, not research on dogs (can't access the full paper, again)
Masson et al., also 2018: a discussion, not research on dogs.
Casey et al: I've not had time to read the whole thing but they say. 'Some caution is required in interpreting these findings as groups were defined according to owner reported use of training methods.' They also say that their findings are correlational, not causal. Correlational results should be handled with enormous care. I need to go and read that paper thoroughly, and won't have the until the middle of the week.
Blackwell et al, 2012: Survey of what owners do, not research on actual dogs.

So of your 8 papers, it looks as if there is perhaps one that might contain good quality research on samples of dogs.

We KNOW that e-collars, well used, are very effective (Elliffe's work on preventing kiwi predation in New Zealand) and low stress for the dogs (see Schilder et al). So why not go for regulation to prevent that bad training, rather than an outright ban?

Especially when the BSAVA says itself that using positive reinforcement to cure stock and wildlife chasing only offers a 'fair' prognosis. If the force free community CAN'T cure a problem reliably, WHY are they pushing for a ban on something that CAN?

Great it's FINALLY happening. Am glad I signed the petition.

@coffeecupsandwaxmelts
Your average pet dog should be on a lead around livestock regardless of whether they can be brought away from the chase.
I entirely agree. I also live in the countryside, and my dogs (high prey drive) are stock-trained, but they're always on a lead in fields with sheep. They encountered a sheep loose on a track recently - they'd turned a corner just ahead of DH. They ignored it. The younger dog was about to pass it and DH called her back; the older dog was already past it and she recalled back past it with no problem.

My dog has a high prey drive - so I keep him on a double-ended secure lead when we're in the countryside
So you never let your dog off-lead in the countryside? If your dog has poor recall and will chase for miles, that's the responsible thing to do. But what's better for your dog's welfare: some mildly aversive training over the course of a few weeks, or a lifetime on lead? Where I live, there is literally nowhere to walk where we don't risk seeing rabbits, deer and livestock.

It doesnt matter what your personal views are on the studies the have all been used to help make the legislation, but interesting in previous threads you have not accepted any peer review or comments on papers as important

We all know that physical pain and use of aversives always causes fall out and we dont need science to tell us that.

We also know that most ecollar users will ignore the legislation and carry on anyway. Loads of comments on social media are about getting bandanas etc to cover the collars.

We can just hope that it sends the message to people that there are alternatives to prevent sheep chasing.

Also a recent survey (try and find it but out in a field at the moment) that was from e collar users and only 3% use the e collar on sheep chasing.

@EdithStourton no, he's never off the lead unless we're at the beach - luckily we live on the coast so I have a choice of about six within a ten minute drive of my house.

He gets plenty of chances to run, don't worry. Just not anywhere he's likely to encounter deer, rabbits or sheep!

It doesnt matter what your personal views are on the studies the have all been used to help make the legislation, but interesting in previous threads you have not accepted any peer review or comments on papers as important
It's not just my views on the studies. It's my view based on what the scientific method is suppose to look like. Ad my opinion of the Lincoln work is supported by the critiques of several other people, three of the five being academic researchers (Elliffe, Sargisson and MacLean), one being a forensic vet (Bailey) and one being a positive trainer (Jo-Rosie Haffenden). I am not a lone voice crying in the wilderness.

As for the previous threads, I asked for links to the peer reviews. These are not usually available, I couldn't find them and so far as I can recall they were not provided. We were, iirc, talking about dominance in dogs and I think I referred you to this article https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.656529/full by the well-respected Clive Wynne.

We all know that physical pain and use of aversives always causes fall out
A lot of aversion doesn't cause pain. Badly timed aversion can definitely cause fall-out. Well-timed aversion is highly effective. A really sharp aversive, well timed, is like burning your hand on the cooker: you know exactly how to avoid it happening again, and within a few seconds / minutes / days (depending on how badly you managed to burn yourself) you're back to cooking, not cowering in a corner of the kitchen terrified of turning on the gas. Most aversive are nothing like as bad as that.

As for the % that use the e-collar for stock chasing, why take it from them when BSAVA admits that their favoured methods are not reliable?

Most aversive are nothing like as bad as that.
And I should add, do not cause physical harm comparable to even a small burn. An e-collar cannot burn a dog.

I'm really confused by these collars. Are there different types?

I've seen vibrating/ buzzing collars used to stop dogs barking in the home. I've seen similar ones used on a dog a bit like a clicker to remind dog to recall. It's not an electric shock I don't think just a vibration.

Are these the same thing? Are they banning the anti dog barking collars too? If not why not?

The thing is... the whole livestock argument is a bit of a red herring really.

I had a sheep worrier, for about a year, he was with me because his previous owners supposedly couldn’t prevent it, I lived in sheep farming country - I did nothing about training him with sheep, just normal recall training and used low tech stuff like leads, doors, fences and gates and it just wasn’t an issue, and yes he got plenty of offlead time, just not where he could get to sheep.

I literally spent most of my spare time as a teenager at farms because that’s where my friends lived, none of us trained our pet dogs round sheep, if they seemed likely to chase, we used a lead, no big deal at all.

Dogs that were worrying sheep were usually ones that got out because owners were leaving them in unsecured gardens or had them off lead where it should have been real obvious there might be sheep.

There are different types. Vibrating collars, spray collars and shock collars.

Vibrating collars mostly can be used for training deaf dogs. They can be really good, not aversive as long as paired and conditioned and are not in the same league as others at all. That said I know quite a few owners of deaf digs and they prefer training check ins and hand signals.

Spray dollars are aversive. They scare the dog and are deeply unpleasant but not painful as such. They should be banned.

E or shock collars cause extreme pain if used in some ways. Mild in others. All settings cause fear and anxiety as that is what they are designed to do. It’s not training. It’s punishment in the extreme. It doesn’t teach the dog anything.

@tabulahrasa your dog experience and growing up experiences sound really similar to mine. I’ve never had an issue with my dogs, and I’ve always socialised them really well. And without showing off, my most recent two before this one, had the best recall ever. I was so proud of them and relaxed. Took all the credit for being a relaxed fun owner who trained them properly.

but honestly, my new one, who is the same breed. From the same line, who I am experienced in owning, is just something else. And you can never be sure there are no sheep. You’ll walk round a corner in a place there have never been sheep, and she’ll spot one, a tiny white dot in the distance, and she’s gone if I don’t see it and react first. And to be honest, her recall is good at all other times. She just gets this absolute mist if she sees a sheep moving. Fine if it’s still. So cows and horses tend to front her and she is chill. If she sheep goes to run off, then I’m in trouble. She’s Been a real challenge and learning curve for me. (I don’t let her chase random sheep btw, I know she does because we have them on our farm)

Its long overdue, if someone cannot handle a dog without physically harming it, then they shouldn’t have a dog at all. Owning a dog isn’t a right, dogs however have the right to be protected from harm.

This absolutely.

Where is this field? My dogs would love it. We get a plain bog standard field.

@Thatbloomindog

I’m totally not saying I could train any dog to recall from sheep btw, I’m not a dog trainer for starters, lol. But I grew up on the north west coast of Scotland, the sheep are pretty much everywhere 😂 because it’s not neat little fields.

But if you had a dog that would chase, you just managed it appropriately.

The sheep worrying foster absolutely would have done it again given any slight opportunity - if shock collars had been a thing then, I could in theory have used one, but, if we were at the point of actually having to use it then we’d have been stuffed really, because the more complicated something is the more chances of it breaking and there’s always the chance given he’d clearly found it rewarding enough to do more than once that he’d ignore any level of shock to chase sheep.

Thats what I mean by it’s a bit of a red herring really, because the best “training” for livestock isn’t actually training at all, it’s just preventing them getting the opportunity to be near them.

Finally, a sensible opinion on this.

The number of livestock attacks will go through the roof and as a result, so will the number of dead dogs.

Interestingly deaf dog organisations are not recommending vibrating collars for deaf dogs anymore. They encourage a natural and frequent check in.

Bloody dreadful things should be banned right now. Everywhere.

@tabulahrasa i completely agree with you there. As we know any training aid can fail. I’m going off topic now I know. But it’s practically impossible near me to walk where you won’t run into a sheep. So poor dog is limited to a life on a long line apart from the off beach trip, which is a bit pants for her.

To reply to a few points raised:
the whole livestock argument is a bit of a red herring really.
It's so not. You never know where sheep might be. They are notorious escape artists. Leads can break or be yanked out of your hand. There are plenty of videos out there of dogs chasing with leads trailing.

The whole point of e-collar training around stock is to put the dog off going near them. Properly done, the dog shouldn't need the collar to be used. And obviously, you'd have it on lead in a field of sheep anyway. It's that sheep that appears on the footpath as you round a bend that you have to worry about, or the dog getting away to find them - a large dog can easily jump stock fencing. The dog learns that sheep are a no-no.

Interestingly deaf dog organisations are not recommending vibrating collars for deaf dogs anymore. They encourage a natural and frequent check in.
Serious question, how does that work when the dog is engrossed in something else and you need its attention urgently?

The number of livestock attacks will go through the roof and as a result, so will the number of dead dogs.

How on earth do you know that?

I live in the countryside, surrounded by sheep, and I have never once seen a dog wearing any kind of shock or eCollar. They're really not as common as some posters are trying to make out.

“It's so not. You never know where sheep might be. They are notorious escape artists. Leads can break or be yanked out of your hand. There are plenty of videos out there of dogs chasing with leads trailing.”

yes, so you behave accordingly... if you can’t hold a lead you use a waist belt.

Also... that’s a terrible argument for shock collars, if you struggle to hold a lead effectively, how on earth would you use a shock collar?

Leads can break or be yanked out of your hand. There are plenty of videos out there of dogs chasing with leads trailing
The type of people who think to take a video when their dog has got away from them with his lead attached are the type of people who probably let go of the lead to get a funny video . It wouldn’t be my first response to letting my dog loose near something he could chase .