Shock collars have been banned in England

[IngGenius]

Shock collars will be banned from February 2024 in England.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dog-electric-collar-ban-b2329041.html

@thecaramelwafer hire a private secure field

@Saucery dogs don't tend to work with their ears do they? I can turn the stimulus up gradually until it breaks his focus, still without hurting him. Once they ignore the whistle or shout, it's fucked, he ain't coming back

@thecaramelwafer so he knows that first ‘low level’ shock will lead to increased pain if he ignores it.

Glad the evil things have been banned.

And of course dogs work with their ears. Sheepdog handlers don’t stand there with a whistle in their mouth for the look of it

@Floralnomad I live near a secluded beach so no need. His recall with no distractions is bulletproof with or without the collar. I do put it on him incase any dogs come bounding out the dunes etc. It keeps everyone safer, better my dog getting a harmless nip than that dog getting shredded miles from a vet.

@thecaramelwafer there will be a lot of dogs that now can’t ever be let off the lead. When 99.9% of the time they are fine. But suddenly there are sheep or something in a field where there usually aren’t. And you just can’t take the risk.
Some dogs really can’t be trained to have 100% recall when they get onto a scent. And so to safeguard others they’ll have to be on a lead all time time.
It’s the way these things are used that’s the problem. And so yes they probably should be banned. Because people use them cruelly and not in the intended way. These things shouldn’t be used as a short cut to lazy training. But they unfortunately are.
But like I said I can think of a few really smashing dogs who get red mist around sheep. And so without a shock collar you couldn’t ever risk letting them off lead.

On horsey fb group today a dog walker had a dog attack a horse on a bridle way. The dog was seriously injured after a kick and the horse was seriously injured as well. Luckily it wasn’t a small child on a pony or it could have resulted in a fatality. The dog has never apparently reacted like that before. Now a shock collar if used properly would have prevented the injury to the horse, as well as the trauma and prevented the injury to the dog, who will now also perhaps be destroyed because it bit the rider too.

I do absolutely hate those prong collars though.

I sympathise with having a reactive dog, but if it needs a shock collar to stop it mauling another dog then perhaps a muzzle would be better?

@Saucery sheep dogs have had hundreds of years of breeding for that job, the breed I have is much closer to its hunting roots. MUCH closer, and he's also the driven one of the pack, the alpha for those that use that terminology. He's a happy dog, it works for us.

All I'd say is there's a lot of misconception around them and they've saved a lot of dogs lives that would otherwise have been pts after miserable lives of being bred to fight, etc. I see why people are averse to them, but would only encourage people to actually do proper research into proper use of them before Instantly writing them off. I can tell people jumping in to say how cruel
they are with no other argument habe definitely got no clue how to humanely use one.

I've just unfollowed a dog owner on Instagram complaining about this and complaining that the prong collar she swears by will be next.

I had not heard of them before but was horrified when I googled 😔

@Thatbloomindog well said, a terrible situation that could have been avoided, that happened unexpectedly.

I do muzzle him walking but he can't pick up a ball with a muzzle on, which is when he's living his very best life. So I wouldn't deny him that when there's a perfectly good solution.

@thecaramelwafer but you do need because if you hired a private field , your dog wouldn’t have to be cruelly treated and other peoples dogs , who can behave , would be safe on the beach you currently use .

@Floralnomad I'm not cruel to my dog, he comes back without me causing any pain as he's conditioned to low level stimuli.

plus he loves the sea, no sea in a field

I use a secure field as 1 of my dogs can not be trusted off lead. Or I will take him somewhere there is nobody around.

My dog would love to eat a cat , he’s not going to be allowed to - life’s like that . If we all went round letting our dogs ‘ live their best lives ‘ the place would be chaos .

Good. Long overdue.

It just doesn't seem like a caring or responsible way to train a dog. I'm not going to research humane ways to use a collar that electrocutes a dog as I follow positive reinforcement and recognising my dogs behaviour.

I agree that dogs off lead have a great time, mine loves off lead playing with other dogs but that's been done through kind training.

Not all breeds respond to the same training methods. Scent hounds are independent so I researched training methods for that type of dog.

I also don't agree with allowing your dog off lead in an insecure area knowing it could attack other dogs.

How much does a secure dog field cost to hire? The nearest one to us is half an hour away and costs about £12 a session. That’s not realistic more than once a week and boring as hell as well.

youll have people say they’ve trained all sorts to over come their instincts and that their recall is 100% and everyone else is lazy. And I’m sure they have achieved that. And that’s great and good for them and their lucky dogs. But honestly even the best trainers will tell you that some dogs have that mist when they lock on. And let’s face it. The average dog owner who cares and loves their dog isn’t a tip top trainer. And what if you end up with a dog like that. You get criticised for rehoming it. But they are accidents waiting to happen. When you choose a puppy you can research a breed all you like. But it’s always a gamble.

The same old arguments come up again and again.

Doesnt really matter anymore

Legislation is now in place

People are going to have to train with a brain and a bit less pain.

Our secure field we rent out £8.00 for an hour.

With swimming, sensory garden, enrichment areas, scurry area, scenting areas.

Not boring

@IngGenius well your field does sound fun for sure

Ours is £6 for 30 mins, dogs love it, plenty to do and sniff.

Big study by Lincoln Uni in 2019 stated that e collars compromised dogs welfare even if used by professional trainers and were no more effective than positive reward based training methods.

https://news.lincoln.ac.uk/2020/10/01/electronic-collars-less-effective-than-reward-based-training-research-finds/

Distracting dogs with a gravy bone isn’t how positive reinforcement works.

It’s operant conditioning too, except instead of the recall cue giving out a punishment if they ignore it, they’re rewarded for doing it. Behavioural science on pretty much everything (not just dogs) shows that it works better than what you’re doing because putting it very simply there’s less likely to be any ignoring

With the reinforcer being a punishment there’s a weighing up to be done,even when it’s been well conditioned over long periods of time ... is this thing worth getting the punishment for? With positive reinforcement, the cue always means something good so it’s more likely to become an automatic behaviour with no weighing up how good the reward might be and if it’s worth it.

The reward isn’t always food either, the reward depends on the dog. So with high prey drive low food motivated dog it might well be an activity, that way you’re working with the drive it has not against it.

Also, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone give a dog a gravy bone since the eighties... nevermind try to use one to proof recall. I don’t know why that’s the go to phrase tbh.

That Lincoln study was a terrible piece of science. It's been demolished even by positive trainers. I'd provide links if I was on my laptop but I'm not, not likely to be till late pm.

An e-collar, well used, can be amazing. I know a dog who is off the longline because his owner was able to resolve recall issues with an e-collar after a year of failure with positive reinforcement (rescue dog). I know another rescue, recall also resolved the same way. Both dogs are confident and happy, not anxious and terrified. E-collar training has given them freedom.

The BSAVA's own behavioural manual says that the prognosis for fixing livestock chasing is 'only fair' using the methods they recommend - positive reinforcement only. Yet you have e-collar trainers resolving livestock chasing routinely with sensitive and sensible e-collar use. With stock, it's not as simple as keeping the dog on a lead in a field with stock (which is what you should do anyway). Leads get yanked out of hands, sheep escape onto footpaths - shit happens.

I know I'm in a minority here, but I'm not celebrating the removal of a valuable training aid.

And I expect most or all of you damning them have never felt one on your own skin, or seen one well used.

Hope people will support farmers for shooting more dogs then. I will absolutely be shooting any dog off lead near my sheep. I support e collars because it stops dogs killing my sheep. No ecollar = more of my livestock killed so I will shoot any dog off lead near my sheep.