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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

ilovemydogmorethaniloveyou · 29/04/2023 00:55

Just in case you need to understand what dogs can and do do to sheep.

Just 4 days ago 1 ewe and 23 lambs were killed by one dog in Kent. Near us there was a mass killing by 1 Akita that broke free of its short lead and apparently had 'bomb proof recall' but it killed 4 lambs and 3 ewes.

More dogs will die now because of this. All the farmers I know are now considering taking a gun out to feed the livestock and having one at all times when out and about now.

Just so you're aware, your dog will be shot if it starts chasing sheep.

Floralnomad · 29/04/2023 00:58

ilovemydogmorethaniloveyou · 29/04/2023 00:49

Hope people will support farmers for shooting more dogs then. I will absolutely be shooting any dog off lead near my sheep. I support e collars because it stops dogs killing my sheep. No ecollar = more of my livestock killed so I will shoot any dog off lead near my sheep.

Feel free , responsible dog owners wouldn’t have their dog offlead around your sheep .

ilovemydogmorethaniloveyou · 29/04/2023 01:03

I need to add I have no skin in this game. I own 3 dogs, 2 border collies for sheep and one Jack Russel who keeps the rats down in the barn, all 3 are fine around live stock and wouldn't Chase anything at all because they're working dogs. However I know I'll be inundated with 'well would you want your dog shot it's not fair..' no I wouldn't want my dog to be shot that's why they're livestock trained but yes I have had to shoot dogs previously, it's hideous and I hate it but my livestock is my livelihood. As yet I've never had an owner of a dog who has been witnessed to chase my sheep come to me and offer to pay for vet bills.

If a dog chases a pregnant ewe they can and do miscarry the lambs.

Last year a dog near us rounded a whole herd of sheep into a pond and 13 drowned.

That would be 13k for the owner of the dog who obviously didn't stick around to speak to the farmer.

thecaramelwafer · 29/04/2023 01:59

@ilovemydogmorethaniloveyou but according to everyone on here what you portray on your pics is better than my dog, who absolutely would do that if he got amongst your sheep, gets a nip on the neck. This is what I mean about people celebrating something detrimental with no clue what they're talking about

ilovemydogmorethaniloveyou · 29/04/2023 02:09

@thecaramelwafer I completely agree with you. I really think this is a sad moment in history. The amount of dogs and sheep that will be killed with the implementation of this law is unprecedented. I think this is so shortsighted and I actually asked my MP if she used an e collar (she does) and yet she still voted against it.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear: I am very sad about this and I urge you if you have a dog who is e collar trained or you want your dog to not kill livestock make it so that the dog doesn't need an e collar after training so you have that 'bombproof recall' you have a year

I have no doubt that people with An e collar trained dog will still use it and just use a bandana to hide it, and I don't blame them.

tabulahrasa · 29/04/2023 05:03

It’ll make absolutely no difference to sheep worrying.

I’ve literally never even heard of it happening when it’s a responsible owner doing everything they should but a lead happens to break... it’s absolutely always someone letting their dog do something they shouldn’t have.

lightinthebox · 29/04/2023 06:34

The type of people you're worried about with out of control dogs wouldn't be using an e collar anyway.

Responsible owners don't allow dogs off lead near livestock anyway and have built strong bonds through positive reinforcement training.

Different breeds respond to different training, it's about researching and knowing how to train different types of dogs and finding what they enjoy eg food or games.

I'm never going to try an e collar against my skin or research humane uses, I fundamentally disagree with them and their use.

Thatbloomindog · 29/04/2023 07:32

@tab there was a thread on here from a women whose dog got away in a field with a footpath. Lead snapped. Sheep weren’t usually in field but were that day. Dog attacked a sheep.
she sounded like a lovely lady and was mortified. She spoke to the farmer and paid the vets bill.
But the damage was still done

Original poster
IngGenius · 29/04/2023 07:43

EdithStourton · 29/04/2023 00:45

That Lincoln study was a terrible piece of science. It's been demolished even by positive trainers. I'd provide links if I was on my laptop but I'm not, not likely to be till late pm.

An e-collar, well used, can be amazing. I know a dog who is off the longline because his owner was able to resolve recall issues with an e-collar after a year of failure with positive reinforcement (rescue dog). I know another rescue, recall also resolved the same way. Both dogs are confident and happy, not anxious and terrified. E-collar training has given them freedom.

The BSAVA's own behavioural manual says that the prognosis for fixing livestock chasing is 'only fair' using the methods they recommend - positive reinforcement only. Yet you have e-collar trainers resolving livestock chasing routinely with sensitive and sensible e-collar use. With stock, it's not as simple as keeping the dog on a lead in a field with stock (which is what you should do anyway). Leads get yanked out of hands, sheep escape onto footpaths - shit happens.

I know I'm in a minority here, but I'm not celebrating the removal of a valuable training aid.

And I expect most or all of you damning them have never felt one on your own skin, or seen one well used.

Not demolished by enough people apparently...

I have felt shock collars on my skin. The lower levels are not too bad on my wrist when I expecting them however on my neck when I am just doing my own thing is a totally different matter.

However the lower levels will not stop a dog chasing livestock and in ever dog I have seen them used there was a "reason" why the dogs had to have a higher level zap. I spent a day with a trainer who uses shock collars over positive training methods so I knew what and how they worked

They have to be an aversive to work

OP posts:
Original poster
IngGenius · 29/04/2023 07:47

Thatbloomindog · 29/04/2023 07:32

@tab there was a thread on here from a women whose dog got away in a field with a footpath. Lead snapped. Sheep weren’t usually in field but were that day. Dog attacked a sheep.
she sounded like a lovely lady and was mortified. She spoke to the farmer and paid the vets bill.
But the damage was still done

What about when the shock collar falls off or the battery doesn't work - same argument for failing leads.

Equipment may fail

I have sheep and a public footpath that goes through our land. I am still in favour of ecollars being banned.

OP posts:
Missingmyusername · 29/04/2023 07:51

If you need an E collar, you shouldn’t have a dog or you have a dog beyond your capabilities. Get a bichon.

If your dog attacks livestock can’t you simply engage brain and either walk your dog elsewhere, pay for off lead time in a dog park, hire a field, keep it on a lead. If it’ll attack other animals, it could attack a child- how do you know a child isn’t also in that field. You don’t.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻England.

coffeecupsandwaxmelts · 29/04/2023 07:58

Thatbloomindog · 29/04/2023 07:32

@tab there was a thread on here from a women whose dog got away in a field with a footpath. Lead snapped. Sheep weren’t usually in field but were that day. Dog attacked a sheep.
she sounded like a lovely lady and was mortified. She spoke to the farmer and paid the vets bill.
But the damage was still done

Okay, and what if the dog was eCollar trained and the collar failed, or the dog slipped it's collar, or decided the chase was worth the punishment?

No training method is foolproof, so I don't know why supporters of eCollars bang on as if they're the holy grail of dog training.

Floralnomad · 29/04/2023 10:43

Thatbloomindog · 29/04/2023 07:32

@tab there was a thread on here from a women whose dog got away in a field with a footpath. Lead snapped. Sheep weren’t usually in field but were that day. Dog attacked a sheep.
she sounded like a lovely lady and was mortified. She spoke to the farmer and paid the vets bill.
But the damage was still done

I remember that thread and she acted totally responsibly however she shouldn’t have had her dog off his lead in the first place until she knew there were no sheep . My dog is unreliable around livestock and deer so I choose to not walk him offlead in areas where those things are , it’s pretty simple really .

Hawkins003 · 29/04/2023 10:44

These do seem omg

Cheapcookies · 29/04/2023 11:22

Great news for dogs who are subjected to methods that cause psychological stress and can cause physical pain.

Dogs should be on lead around livestock. End of. Livestock stuff simply isn't an excuse. Lazy trainers use shock collars because they can't be bothered understanding their individual dog's motivators, or how to harness them.

If a dog is genuinely motivated enough to chase livestock, an electronic collar won't stop them. If your timing for punishment is as good as you claim it to be, then management and positive methods would be more effective without causing stress go the dog.

RedBonnet · 29/04/2023 11:33

We've trained our ess not to chase anything - kids, joggers, sheep, squirrels. Pic of him watching a squirrel just a few feet from him.
He's 11mo and recall not there yet so he uses a 10m training lead.

Still goes places where he can be off lead.

It's a matter of training and desensitisation. No need for aversive

RedBonnet · 29/04/2023 11:34

Sorry forgot the pic

RedBonnet · 29/04/2023 11:36

🙄

Shock collars have been banned in England
bookworm44 · 29/04/2023 11:57

Floralnomad · 29/04/2023 10:43

I remember that thread and she acted totally responsibly however she shouldn’t have had her dog off his lead in the first place until she knew there were no sheep . My dog is unreliable around livestock and deer so I choose to not walk him offlead in areas where those things are , it’s pretty simple really .

Show quote history

He was on a lead, which snapped.

Floralnomad · 29/04/2023 12:05

@bookworm44 isn’t that always the way , perhaps people should use a double ended lead then if they are near livestock or even out in the countryside with a possibility of livestock . Still no excuse for cruelty .

coffeecupsandwaxmelts · 29/04/2023 12:19

bookworm44 · 29/04/2023 11:57

He was on a lead, which snapped.

Show quote history

I often think that one clipped lead on a collar doesn't actually offer much protection in the event of your dog pulling or lunging. We used double-ended leads around livestock - and sometimes a slip lead as well as a normal lead for extra-protection.

I'd also emphasise that so many people don't look after their dogs' equipment - collars and leads need to be checked regularly for damage and should probably be replaced at least once a year as well. Personally I also use buckle collars as I've seen the clip ones fail once too often.

Quveas · 29/04/2023 12:53

Floralnomad · 29/04/2023 00:58

Feel free , responsible dog owners wouldn’t have their dog offlead around your sheep .

Show quote history

Quite. E-collar or not, no dog should be off lead around livesock unless it is their job. E-collars do not stop dogs from attacking sheep - people stop dogs from attacking sheep. My service dog is impeccably trained with instant recall when not working. And I wouldn't have him off lead around livestock.

But on another note, it's great to see the Kennel Club doing something positive for dogs. Perhaps they could now have a look at some of their practices, such a ridiculous breed standards, that also cause harm to dogs?

tabulahrasa · 29/04/2023 12:54

bookworm44 · 29/04/2023 11:57

He was on a lead, which snapped.

Show quote history

I don’t remember that thread, but without being purposefully judgemental about someone who isn’t there and I know nothing about, because that’s just mean.

IME, appropriate leads don’t just snap... I mean, maybe she had a fluke one with some sort of manufacturing fault, but that could happen with any piece of equipment.

I’ve had cheap longlines I’ve been using for puppies inside the house just break, but I’ve been aware they weren’t appropriate for real use, so it wasn’t a huge deal, I’ve known people using flimsy extendables have them snap, but not normal short leads suddenly go from being in good condition to just broken.

Blyde · 29/04/2023 15:55

To all of you celebrating the ban of the ‘cruel’ E collar, answer me this…
when my aggressive & reactive dog decides to attack you as you pass me on a walk or (its not happened thank goodness) if he slips his collar and chases you/your dog/ your kids in a reactive state, what biscuit would you like me to use so he won’t kill your little poochie? Obviously he’s faster than me so I’m assuming it’s going to have to he a really good one with a strong smell?

tabulahrasa · 29/04/2023 16:09

Blyde · 29/04/2023 15:55

To all of you celebrating the ban of the ‘cruel’ E collar, answer me this…
when my aggressive & reactive dog decides to attack you as you pass me on a walk or (its not happened thank goodness) if he slips his collar and chases you/your dog/ your kids in a reactive state, what biscuit would you like me to use so he won’t kill your little poochie? Obviously he’s faster than me so I’m assuming it’s going to have to he a really good one with a strong smell?

Why would you be walking your dog with that sort of behavioural issue on a collar he could slip out of?