Shock collars have been banned in England

[IngGenius]

Shock collars will be banned from February 2024 in England.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dog-electric-collar-ban-b2329041.html

Tbh @Blyde it doesnt really matter what your think as legislation will hopefully be going through anyway so you have no choice but to ditch the ecollar.

Many reactive dogs cant be trained hence the need for professional behaviourists who role is very different from a trainers. Change the emotional state of the dog and the dogs behaviour will change.

As said before if you are struggling with your dog and are concerned how to work with your dog once the e collar has gone I can recommend some outstanding behaviourists who can and will help your situation.

I agree that giving a bit of chicken to a dog in an over aroused state will do nothing but with correct education and being shown how to change your dogs emotional state you will see a change in behaviour.

Thats very cruel. Forcing a dog to wear a muzzle.

Who said anything about biscuits?

Aye, okay 😂

Yet shocking it on the neck is perfectly acceptable 😏

You’re right is doesn't matter what I think.
Unfortunately it will matter to the countless people that get bitten and have their lives changed forever and the countless dogs which get shot by farmers or put to sleep.

Thing is, working on a reactive dog isn’t training, in the same sense as it usually is, it’s not do something and get a reward... you’re working on the underlying emotion behind the behaviour first, usually fear.

If you were seeing someone qualified, they’d give you management techniques as well, so nobody is being put in danger while the reactivity is being worked on.

Psychological vs physical

There’s no force, a properly muzzle trained dog comes running over and sticks it’s about in the muzzle willingly and happily.

No, it’s both.

With a shock collar on a reactive dog, there’s the very real possibility it’ll make the behaviour worse, but if it doesn’t (because it doesn’t always) you’re just stuck forever doing behaviour management with it, because you’ve don’t nothing to actually improve the dog’s original issue.

With proper qualified help, you’d get recommendations of kinder tools to manage the behaviour, techniques to avoid the dog going over threshold to start with and stuff to do to resolve the underlying issue.

A shock collar is like putting a plaster on a wound that needs stitches, it might help a bit but it’ll never actually heal right.

Muzzle training done right has zero psychological impact on a dog. They love their muzzle and come running over when you get it out.

eCollar training consists of both physical and psychological pain and punishment. It's pretty grim that so many people are proud of inflicting that on their dogs, tbh.

I’ve had a very reactive fear-aggressive rescue dog. Never had to resort to an e-collar. Never had a lead snap or fail, or had him slip his collar or harness. I worked very hard at consistent operant conditioning and positive reinforcement, it wasn’t quick or easy but it paid dividends and over time his “comfort bubble” shrank and he stayed calmer as dogs got closer. And I put the effort in to give him a good life - walking him at ridiculous hours when there was minimal chance of meeting another dog so I could give him plenty of off-lead time.

There’ll always be some cunt who tries to justify training through pain, fear and other aversive methods and who uses mealy-mouthed euphemisms to try to make it sound more palatable, but there’s no justification for it.

There’s no need to use offensive terms for the female genitalia. How very misogynistic. 💁‍♀️

I’d just like to say thank you. After careful consideration- I think you’re all right and i’m going to try off-leash walking with no e collar before the ban even starts.
fingers crossed all goes well!

In fairness, owners justifying using them have usually been given a load of bad advice and false information from bullshit “trainers” with no valid qualifications making a quick buck from people at the end of their tether.

People don’t usually randomly just go, think I’ll buy a shock collar for my dog...

@tabulahrasa I’m not sure , my husband had an ex colleague who used a shock collar and was recommending them to others with puppies when he got a cavapoo as it was easier than actually training it to recall !

Yeah...you can't do that with zero training in place.

Thing is, the irresponsible owners you're thinking of who let dogs off lead around livestock won't be using shock collars either.

As a dog owner myself I'm highly concerned that the only thing stopping an off lead and reactive dog from attacking mine is through shocking it rather than adequate and consistent training.

I'd rather that dog was kept on lead and wore a muzzle.

Having a dangerous dog off lead is not safe, if owners aren't willing to find qualified behaviorists and put the work in then the needs to be rehomed or PTS.

I own and have owned dogs with a high prey drive. I either use well trained and proofed recall, building up over time or a lead. Not hard. There is never need for pain and fear. I’ve walked hundreds if not thousands of miles in open countryside incident and shock collar free. Most of it with my dog off the lead.

99% of us can use a lead in the few situations where it’s needed. The other 1% who require their dogs to be offlead around stock have much better and more effective methods for stock training than inflicting fear and pain!

To add, I work with high voltage equipment. Not current but voltage so enough to hurt but not to kill (unless you have a pacemaker). I’ve been hit with voltages lower than an e collar uses. It really hurts and has a whole body effect not just where you are shocked.

Really?

FFS... that doesn’t even make sense because they’d still have to train the recall, just using a punishment instead of reward.

I mean, a dog doesn’t suddenly understand that you want them to come back because you put a collar on...

Some people really don’t deserve dogs.

@tabulahrasa he absolutely should not have a dog , that is just one of the many things that my husband told me that makes me squirm , unfortunately he is one of those people that is an expert about everything so nothing my husband can say would change his approach .

The Lincoln study. Well, two papers (2014 and 2020), one set of data. It's not good science. To shrug and say, oh, well, people still believe it, isn't good enough.

This is a critique by a very well-known positive trainer:
https://www.facebook.com/schoolofcaninescience/posts/3160247170734282
This is one by a forensic vet, conducted iirc for DEFRA:
https://joinardo.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/D-201111-Lincoln-Review-David-Bailey.pdf
There are others.

For those who don't want to read them, criticisms include the fact that:
the dogs were being taught commands (recall and sit) which are more easily taught with positive reinforcement;
the three groups were not matched. The e-collar group appears to have included a larger number of dogs with more difficult behaviours;
the +R group taught by the +R trainers had much better weather to train in (spring in Lincolnshire) - the other 2 groups had such adverse conditions that they were brought in out of the fields (winter in Scotland);
the video review wasn't blinded. And so on.

For all those saying, do it all with positive reinforcement, can I remind you that the BSAVA's own behavioural manual, which based entirely on positive reinforcement, says that their methods offer only a 'fair' prognosis for stock chasing. This implies that some dogs DO need aversion to bring them away from the chase. If they don't, then why can't the vet behaviourists offer a reliable course of behavioural modification to fix the issue? This is a really key question.

But it is not just the Lincoln study

Blackwell EJ, Bolster C, Richards G, Loftus BA, & Casey RA (2012). The use of electronic collars for training domestic dogs: estimated prevalence, reasons and risk factors for use, and owner perceived success as compared to other training methods. BMC veterinary research, 8 PMID: 22748195

Casey, R.A., Naj-Oleari, M., Campbell, S. et al. Dogs are more pessimistic if their owners use two or more aversive training methods. Sci Rep 11, 19023 (2021). doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-97743-0

China, L., Mills, D.S. & Cooper, J.J. (2020) Efficacy of dog training with and without remote electronic collars vs. a focus on positive reinforcement. Frontiers in Veterinary Science, doi.org/10.3389/fvets.2020.00508.

Cooper, J. J., Cracknell, N., Hardiman, J., Wright, H., & Mills, D. (2014). The welfare consequences and efficacy of training pet dogs with remote electronic training collars in comparison to reward based training. PloS one, 9(9), e102722. doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0102722

Masson, S., de la Vega, S., Gazzano, A., Mariti, C., Pereira, G. D. G., Halsberghe, C., Leyvraz, A.M., McPeake, K. & Schoening, B. (2018). Electronic training devices: discussion on the pros and cons of their use in dogs as a basis for the position statement of the European Society of Veterinary Clinical Ethology. Journal of Veterinary Behavior, 25, 71-75. doi.org/10.1016/j.jveb.2018.02.006

Masson, S., Nigron, I., & Gaultier, E. (2018). Questionnaire Survey on The Use Of Different E-Collar Types in France in Everyday Life With A View To Providing Recommendations for Possible Future Regulations. Journal of Veterinary Behavior. doi.org/10.1016/j.jveb.2018.05.004

Todd, Z. (2018). Barriers to the adoption of humane dog training methods. Journal of Veterinary Behavior, 25, 28-34. doi.org/10.1016/j.jveb.2018.03.004

Vieira de Castro, A. C., Fuchs, D., Morello, G. M., Pastur, S., de Sousa, L., & Olsson, I. A. S. (2020). Does training method matter? Evidence for the negative impact of aversive-based methods on companion dog welfare. Plos one, 15(12), e0225023. doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0225023

I can answer this on behalf of my DSis and DBil who used an e collar:

• can't be arsed to keep up consistent training

• dog likes being off lead

• have a weird boho pride in having a chaotic, misbehaved dog, but want some control eventually

She once turned the dial the wrong way and dog squeaked and shot into air.
If it wasn't for my nephews I would have cut off contact.