Breeding from my dog

[Ethel1000]

I have a 3 1/2 year old springer and mated her with another springer. She was rejected to be KC registered due to her mum being too old. Not mine at the time. If I have all other information re pure breed will this negate any future pup being KC registered?
Thanks in advance.

We test a very very small number of conditions. We test the baby, not mum, let alone dad.

That’s what I said, we test humans during gestation. Not sure what point you’re making.

Yes, you can do all the checks you want and you may end up with a sick dog anyway. That’s life.

But we have seen first hand what years if irresponsible breeding have done. Spaniels with skulls too small for their brains. Gsd’s with backs so sloping they can barely walk. Pugs and frenchies with faces so flat they can’t breathe. Dachshunds with backs so fragile a big % end up paralysed. Then the bog standard hip dysplasias and subluxing knees.

Bottom line is dogs have been bred to a point where most have congenital issues. As a responsible society over the last few years we are trying to correct this. Not breeding closely related animals. Checking animals before breeding for any existing or potential issues that may be passed on to offspring.

It’s basic responsible dog ownership. You aren’t prepared to do all the checks you possibly can for your dog and it’s puppies, don’t breed. O/p hasn’t.

I don’t care about KC registration. I care that o/p hasn’t bothered to get a few tests to ensure her puppies are as healthy as they possibly can be.

I'm definitely not a breeder, but promote responsible breeding, which this isn't. In fact I only take in the unwanted dregs of the dog world, so have good reason to be fed up of the 'just one litter does no harm." I think you need to stop making assumptions about posters which are obviously wrong

No idea why anyone would assume those of us calling for responsible breeding our breeders ourselves. That's a massive assumption!

I for one am def not a breeder and no intention of ever breeding. I just strongly believe in responsible breeder and have always gone to lengths to make sure any pup I buy is bred in those circumstances

That’s what I said, we test humans during gestation. Not sure what point you’re making
I thought it was quite obvious. The argument being out forward here is that bitches should be tested before considering breeding just as humans are. Well pregnant human females are not tested for genetic disorders routine before being given the go ahead to fall pregnant so the analogy holds no weight.

But we have seen first hand what years if irresponsible breeding have done
I totally agree, but the issue is this assumption that anyone who isn't a registered professional breeder is automatically one of those people when there is no evidence that it is the case.

Putting everyone in the same basket and feeling entitled to judge them based on one's own standard is not very respectable.

I just strongly believe in responsible breeder and have always gone to lengths to make sure any pup I buy is bred in those circumstances
Good for you, that's your choice. I've looked for slightly different circumstances that matter to me and might not matter to you.

The fact that she isnt a kc reg breeder isn't the issue fgs! She hasn't bothered to get eyes, hips, elbows checked on her bitch, meaning that there may well be issues down the line leaving a life of pain and suffering for any that are affected. Of course tests aren't a guarantee, but at least you know you're doing your best to ensure healthy pups. Wanting kc registration for them smacks of wanting more money for them too.
Plenty of humans are tested genetically and advised to think carefully before conceiving too.

Can't think of anything more important than backing responsible healthy well raised pups of a breed that suits more lifestyle....

Not one of my pups has been bought from a professional breeder btw. Just people who love the breed.

thought it was quite obvious. The argument being out forward here is that bitches should be tested before considering breeding just as humans are. Well pregnant human females are not tested for genetic disorders routine before being given the go ahead to fall pregnant so the analogy holds no weight

The difference being dogs don’t have capacity to make their own decisions.

Humans can be, and are tested for a variety of genetic conditions before they get pregnant. Humans with a family history can choose to get the tests. They can then decide to go ahead with a pregnancy with that knowledge.

Dogs can’t a) make a decision to get pregnant. B) you can’t explain to a dog that the risk of their puppies dying from syringomelia is very high, do they want to take that risk?

So you’re right, the analogy isn’t great. What it does mean is that we are going to keep pets and make decisions for them, we need to make those decisions in their best interest. That includes, if we are going to make that decision to allow a pregnancy, that the puppies are as healthy as possible.

It’s a few tests. Why are you so against it?

I've noticed repeatedly on this board that some posters seem to divide breeders into Good (health test, breed the best to the best, etc) and Evil (everyone else).

Actually there is a massive grey area in between. In fact, I'd argue that the pressure to NOT breed your family pet has gone to far, given the number of puppies now sourced from gruesome places. Loss of generic diversity is a massive issue in many breeds and not breeding 95% of dogs (while using the same half a dozen studs and a few dozen bitches) isn't going to help.

It's also possible that one of OP's buyers wants to know if a puppy can be KC reg so they can run it in gundog trials, for which KC registration is mandatory.

The argument being out forward here is that bitches should be tested before considering breeding just as humans are.

No, that wasn’t the argument at all. The argument was “we don’t test humans so.....” I responded to say that we do test humans.

so the analogy holds no weight.

And I didn’t suggest the analogy. @dhisreadingmypostsagain did.

@bluebluezoo thank you, for calming down the outrage.

I love how you all can sling words around like "backyard breeders" and that's ok, but when I assume everyone who comments is a breeder it's not acceptable.

You are all making assumptions about OP, I made assumptions about you all as a collective, not nice is it.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman sorry meant to tag you in my last post not @bluebluezoo

but when I assume everyone who comments is a breeder it's not acceptable.

No one said it isn’t acceptable. Just that you were wrong in your assumption that we were all breeders. It’s not difficult to understand.

No one has made assumptions about OP. She laid the facts out quite clearly. She did not health test her dog before breeding her. It’s not an assumption anyone has made. OP told us.

She hasn't bothered to get eyes, hips, elbows checked on her bitch, meaning that there may well be issues down the line leaving a life of pain and suffering for any that are affected
Ok, so OP failed to do some tests, one that will in all likelihood no implications as the chances that her healthy adult dog will pass on horrible genetic illnesses are low.

So if she'd added that she'd done those tests, would everyone gave said 'good on you'? Do the tests makes the sole difference between a responsible breeder and one who should named and shamed and vilified? Even if the breed is category one with few genetic concerns?

dontdisturbmenow DNA test are categorised as:

Hereditary Clear = both parents have had clear tests
Clear= had DNA test and was clear
Carrier= had DNA test and faulty genes was found - this is the vital knowledge bit of breeding. Because if you then breed a "carrier" with a "carrier" then the offspring have a high chance of developing the condition.
Affected = has the condition that is tested for.

It doesn't matter if the breed is overall a category one with few genetic concerns ... two carriers can't be mated.
And this is where the Kennel Club is important, they are a huge database for these tests, as well as holding pedigrees to check on inbreeding. Some of the data is actually recorded on your pedigree papers.

Now, OP could have done the DNA test anyway just to ensure that her girl is "clear" and produces healthy puppies... Hip / elbow scores and visual eye tests, I leave out as it's a grey area in my opinion.

I should also add, never breed from affected animals!

Comparing not testing humans to dogs is a stupid argument. The issues in dogs are mostly been bred in by humans, so if we can prevent future issues in the breed then it should be done. Why should an animal suffer for the rest of its life purely because someone decided to breed their dog because it was cute or they wanted it to have a litter. Or in OPs case that their dog was 'receptive' to the stud... well duh she will be if she's in heat and in her fertile window.

The fact that OP hadn't bothered to do their research first regarding the KC registration just goes to show how little they thought about this litter.

Any caring breeder will do health tests, I'd never buy a dog without fully health tested parents. I might stud my male in the future but he will have all the health tests for his breed and will have good hips and elbows before I even consider putting him to stud. And equally any bitch will have to have had the same tests as him.

My background is behaviour and it always amazes me that people cling onto the health tests and do not consider in anyway that how the dog is breed and the bitch looked after during pregnancy, whelping and the first 8 weeks will have a huge irreviersible impact on the dogs. What protocols the breeder uses to help with development.

I dont wish ill health on any dog (especially if it can be prevented) but a dog with HD could arguably be easier to look after and help than a dog with behaviour issues due to poor breeding and upbringing. By the time the puppies have got to their new homes there can be irreversible damage.

However what does tend to go hand in hand is a breeder that does not do health tests will have very little clue or education on how to socialise the puppies in the earl days.

If you are buying a puppy do not only concentrate on the health tests demand to know what they do to their bitch at 4 weeks gestation, how the bitch will give birth and were, what ens will they do with their puppies, how will they wean the puppies, what is the socialistion plan from week one to week 8. This should be varied and include separation from the rest of the litter and intro to slightly stressful situations. How will they manange the stressful situations and what will they be lokking for in a pup.

If they give you blank looks walk away.

“I dont wish ill health on any dog (especially if it can be prevented) but a dog with HD could arguably be easier to look after and help than a dog with behaviour issues due to poor breeding and upbringing“

You could argue that, but my experience is that joint problems cause behavioural problems - I’ve never owned or fostered a dog with elbow or hip dysplasia that wasn’t dog aggressive to some extent... I know dogs with joint problems and no behavioural issues exist, but all the ones that I’ve dealt with have had issues, so as I acquire them randomly I’d assume it’s fairly prevalent.

It is quite hard to be fair, to convince an under exercised, under socialised dog that even though dogs keep causing them pain they aren’t something they should be reacting to...

Yes good point Tabulahrasa and I dont want to get into an either or situation, which is worse etc.

Although a dog with HD and behavioural problems can be hugely helped by effective pain relief and therapeutics . A dog with "behavioural issues" due to poor breeding is always a challenge.

An example of this was a little of puppies that had been weaned inappropriately. The whole litter had major and I mean major resource guarding issues. Several had bitten and half of the litter was pts due to this. It was heartbreaking and still years on haunts me.

I guess we need educated, caring breeders in all cases and owners who are savvy to do their research and only buy from these breeders. We can dream ......

little = litter !

“Although a dog with HD and behavioural problems can be hugely helped by effective pain relief and therapeutics”

Again... not always tbh, pain relief isn’t always as effective as you’d like it to be

Btw, I don’t think it’s a better or worse kind of deal - it’s just that health tests are so basic before breeding that I’d never even get as far as asking about weaning or their socialisation plan...because you can more or less guarantee if someone doesn’t bother to do the breed appropriate health tests, they won’t be doing anything else well either.

I guess it just depends on your background if I have a behavioural case that is caused by pain. I know that I can improve that situation (not cure) but definitely improve whether that be through medication, change of environment lifestyle, conditioning, behavioural work etc.

When I have a behaviour case with no obvious cause or an anxious temperament then you can begin to be on very difficult ground and the path to change the behaviour is hard. Owners in this situation have a long road ahead of them.