Breeding from my dog

[Ethel1000]

I have a 3 1/2 year old springer and mated her with another springer. She was rejected to be KC registered due to her mum being too old. Not mine at the time. If I have all other information re pure breed will this negate any future pup being KC registered?
Thanks in advance.

I’ve had to care for dogs dumped as strays with advanced mammary cancer, a mammary strip if able is a hugely invasive procedure for a dog often palliative care is all that can be given, Ive lost count of dogs with pyometra, both avoidable by speying.

Vets don’t just treat dogs. There are all sorts of other small animals as well as the millions of cattle and sheep and horses up and down the country. There will always be work for vets.
Our local vets is small animals only now - they've stopped doing livestock and poultry, and from my observations in the waiting room, at least half of their work is pet dogs. They employ half a dozen vets. So that would be at least 3 vets on the scrapheap. And there is plenty of irresponsible breeding of horses.

55 dogs every day die because there’s no home for them is a disgrace.
I don't think I said it was a good thing. I was just pointing out that 20k was the maximum number (iirc it's nearer 12k, which is still not great), which is a very small number set against the total dog population of the UK, and the number of puppies that are born each year to sustain that population.

Mandatory neuter for 3 years would be ideal to reduce the overall pet population.
Well, no. A bloody long way from ideal from my POV, with a young bitch sleeping on the sofa next to me who I'd like to prove in work and trials before I breed her, if I ever do. And if I do, I'd like to find a sire who is fit, well and still going strong at 7 or 8 or 9 years of age: I'd like to see lasting good health and the possibility of a long life.

The problem with over-enthusiastic rule-making is that it often penalises the responsible for the actions of the irresponsible, who will quite probably just carry on anyway.

Looking at the animal welfare in many European countries I couldnt give a toss that they think neutering is cruel to be frank
The countries where neutering is more frowned upon and even illegal are the Scandi nations, where animal welfare is on the whole very good.

Our local vets is small animals only now - they've stopped doing livestock and poultry, and from my observations in the waiting room, at least half of their work is pet dogs. They employ half a dozen vets. So that would be at least 3 vets on the scrapheap. And there is plenty of irresponsible breeding of horses.

Yeah and if dogs disappeared they’d start treating livestock again. they won’t just sit there waiting for guinea pigs to appear.

Think you'll find vets are just specialising.

I wouldn't let a small animal vet treat my horse!

Any practise that now does small animal and equine for example has vets that do each. They don't mix

Slightly missing the point of the thread with this train of discussion.

I think you’d find that any vet facing the loss of their entire income due to dogs disappearing might be interested in revising their horse castration notes rather than walking away from the whole profession.

Even If some did walk away from it, vets wouldn’t disappear if dogs disappeared as claimed upthread.

You still haven't said why you are breeding from her. I hope it's not this "wanting her to experience motherhood" rubbish that I often hear. Having your children taken away within months of birth isn't really a great way to experience motherhood, whatever species.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

Vets don’t just treat dogs. There are all sorts of other small animals as well as the millions of cattle and sheep and horses up and down the country. There will always be work for vets. Our local vets is small animals only now - they've stopped doing livestock and poultry, and from my observations in the waiting room, at least half of their work is pet dogs. They employ half a dozen vets. So that would be at least 3 vets on the scrapheap. And there is plenty of irresponsible breeding of horses.

55 dogs every day die because there’s no home for them is a disgrace.
I don't think I said it was a good thing. I was just pointing out that 20k was the maximum number (iirc it's nearer 12k, which is still not great), which is a very small number set against the total dog population of the UK, and the number of puppies that are born each year to sustain that population.

Mandatory neuter for 3 years would be ideal to reduce the overall pet population.
Well, no. A bloody long way from ideal from my POV, with a young bitch sleeping on the sofa next to me who I'd like to prove in work and trials before I breed her, if I ever do. And if I do, I'd like to find a sire who is fit, well and still going strong at 7 or 8 or 9 years of age: I'd like to see lasting good health and the possibility of a long life.

The problem with over-enthusiastic rule-making is that it often penalises the responsible for the actions of the irresponsible, who will quite probably just carry on anyway.

Looking at the animal welfare in many European countries I couldnt give a toss that they think neutering is cruel to be frank
The countries where neutering is more frowned upon and even illegal are the Scandi nations, where animal welfare is on the whole very good.

And yet there are vets in Norway who would disagree with the policy from veterinary -practice.com

"There seems to be a growing motivation among Norwegian small animal veterinarians towards encouraging dog owners to neuter/spay their dog. They argue that spaying/neutering is legal and common practice abroad, and that there are obvious health benefits from
castration. Non-breeding females are much less often spayed for other reasons than medical, whereas male behaviour problems are more often used as an argument for surgical castration. New drugs, such as GnRH-agonist implants (e.g. deslorelin), which down regulate testicular and ovarian function, entered the Norwegian market in 2009 and may provide an option for owners who are hesitant towards surgery."

Lol they might revise their notes... doesn't make a good horse vet. Horse vets don't need to be just a "good vet", they will have grown up/be experienced around horses. If u don't have that.... you're not onto a winner.

I've seen non horsey vet students around horses and have witnesses a small animal vet try a treat a horse. Scared and or out of their depth is the short answer.

Well it’s a bit late now...

Take 8 million dogs out of the vet practice equation and there will be a lot of unemployed vets. That's what I was trying to explain. 🤷

@Ethel1000 wow I'm amazed you are bothering to reply to these outright nasty pieces of work.

You know what KC breeders just get their knickers in a twist because they loose out in money when the regular folk like OP breed her family pet. You all "sell" your puppies right, for high prices, if you are that worried about the dog population then stop breeding yourselves.

What gives you the right to talk to someone like you all so? The KC isn't a religion, most dog owners don't give two hoots about you all and your rules and shows and pedigree dogs.

Ans yes I own four dogs, two KC and two non KC.

And for the record KC dogs can get cancer, and hip issues and all kinds of health problems as much as the non KC, it's the absolute luck of the draw.

Acting like "dog gods" actually discourages regular families from using you all.

Maybe just take a look through this thread and see how you collectively come across as one of the nastiest group of people.

OP I really hope you have a fab litter and I'm sure they will have beautiful homes, you sound great.

And for the record KC dogs can get cancer, and hip issues and all kinds of health problems as much as the non KC, it's the absolute luck of the draw

It isn’t the “luck of the draw”. A dog who’s parents have had tests for these issues is much less likely to suffer from them. If the parents don’t have the genes for a disease the offspring can’t get it.

I haven’t seen any nastiness or vitriol. Just pointing out if the o/p had really cared about the puppies and breeding she’d have done her research, and got both parent dogs tested for the known genetic issues with springers. Which is not a once over from the vet.

You seem to also think we are all breeders on this thread with a financial interest to discourage others. I’m certainly not.

It’s not the KC thing that is the issue here. It’s that
O/p has mated two dogs with no idea if they are carrying recessive genes or has conditions that could mean sick puppies, when it’s an easy test.

And like I said my parents had a KC dog that died of cancer at 4 years old, we've owned dogs for generations and you can test all you like you can talk KC all you like but a dog is a dog and will still develop issues, weirdly it doesn't know if it's KC.

It is the luck of the draw, we've had KC retrievers with and without hip issues.

It isn’t the “luck of the draw”. A dog who’s parents have had tests for these issues is much less likely to suffer from them. If the parents don’t have the genes for a disease the offspring can’t get it

Not always true... there are several tests: DNA - that is a test for specific conditions and canbe usedas prevention.
Hip Scores and other visual tests only determine that the dog in question hasn't got the condition at this point in time. It doesn't guarantee that any offspring will develop the the conditions examined.

There's no guarantee but there is research that hips/elbows etc can be partly genetic. To breed from a dog with high scores is irresponsible

Of course it's not always genetic and can also be environmental from people over exercising pups etc.

It's not a guarantee. Nothing in life is. But it's the responsible thing.

But that's the point of what I'm saying, it is the "luck" what you're both saying is that testing may or may not tell you if they will go onto develop issues.

It's not definite is it, so there is therefore a degree of luck or bad luck.

We don't test humans before we allow them to breed, get the hip scores, define their potential issues, because it's impossible to predict what any animal will go on to develop.

You all "sell" your puppies right, for high prices, if you are that worried about the dog population then stop breeding yourselves.

I’ve never bred or sold a dog or pup in my life. KC or otherwise. OP is still a backyard breeder who hasn’t health tested her dog.

We don't test humans before we allow them to breed, get the hip scores, define their potential issues,

We test humans during the gestation period for genetic abnormalities. After which many pregnancies are ended to prevent creating a human who will suffer throughout their life.

@Smallsteps88 OP is a person with the absolute rights to do what she pleases with her bitch, she's not running a puppy farm ffs, she's doing what everyone has done for years and having a litter from her family dog.

She sounds like she will have a great experience and fully enjoy and nurture her bitch and pups and will be exhausted for 8 weeks!

She's not backyard breeder, whatever that phase means? It sounds a bit old fashioned and rude to be honest.

@Smallsteps88 I'll assume form that comment you never had children.

OP is a person with the absolute rights to do what she pleases with her bitch

Having the right to do something doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.

she's not running a puppy farm ffs, she's doing what everyone has done for years and having a litter from her family dog.

Actually, everyone very much hasn’t done this for years.

She's not backyard breeder, whatever that phase means?

She is. Whether you think it’s rude or not doesn’t change that.

I'll assume form that comment you never had children.

I don’t know why.

“We don't test humans before we allow them to breed, get the hip scores, define their potential issues,“

We also don’t get them to reproduce with who we want and then sell the offspring as pets...

Though with things like surrogacy or egg and spent donation they do in fact run a whole load of health tests and refuse people with genetic illnesses... so...

Actually a LOT of people with genetic conditions think long and hard before having children.....

We test humans during the gestation period for genetic abnormalities. After which many pregnancies are ended to prevent creating a human who will suffer throughout their life
We test a very very small number of conditions. We test the baby, not mum, let alone dad. We don't systematically test mum and dad for Cystic Fibrosis for instance.

This all genetic testing of dogs will only pick up the most common conditions that can be tested for. There are many other conditions a dog can suffer from that won't be picked up from the standard tests done by vets.

I agree that the vitriol here is alarming and as stated above, if anything is totally putting me off getting a dog from a KC registered breeder.

The issue with dogs having to be put down is irresponsible owners in the first place. Sadly, KC registered breeders have little ways to be totally assured that one if their puppy won't end up one of those horribly unfortunate dogs.