Breeding from my dog

[Ethel1000]

I have a 3 1/2 year old springer and mated her with another springer. She was rejected to be KC registered due to her mum being too old. Not mine at the time. If I have all other information re pure breed will this negate any future pup being KC registered?
Thanks in advance.

Oh the warriors are out again!

Yeah, how dare people give a fuck about animal welfare? Disgraceful warriors that they are!

Personally, I would much prefer to get a puppy from someone like you than a professional breeder who has a number of bitches and therefore struggling to give them all the love and attention they deserve and get rid of them when they become too old

You do know there are better options than the o/p or what you describe as a “professional”.

There are many people out there invested in the improvement and wellbeing of breeds. They are informed about genetics, get their dogs tested and will not breed from any that aren’t top quality.

They tend to be those who show or work dogs. They breed when they need to replace retired dogs. Retired dogs live as pets or are found pet homes away from the show ring or working environment.

Problem is, responsible breeders like these don’t churn out puppies. You may have to wait 2 years plus for a puppy.

Most people won’t wait that long or bother to research. So they go to a puppy farm or a backyard breeder because they can have a puppy NOW. Buying from people like the o/p drives the demand and financial reward for such people.

Many many people breed from their dog in a moral and responsible way by have a proven dog with all the health tests but only have 1 or 2
Dogs and the occasional litter

Responsible breeding doesn't mean a massive breeding operation with multiple bitches, constant litters and kennelled dogs.... not even remotely

’She was rejected to be KC registered due to her mum being too old.‘

Because the KC have rules to protect the welfare of the dogs and the breed - to limit the number of litters that can be bred from a bitch in its lifetime, to ensure that bitches aren’t bred when they’re too young or old.

You’ll never be able to register any pups from your bitch. The rules exist to stop irresponsible breeders like the one you bought your dog from and you.

@dontdisturbmenow

"Ignore condescending posters here, they don't represent people's view in the real world."

Er, yes. Yes they do.

They represent the views of the people trying to prevent or clear up the mess left by this sort of breeder. The scientists, geneticists, trainers, behaviourists, dog wardens, stray kennels, rescue organisations, vets.

They world they are in is a lot more real than yours.

Yours is a world in which you will have that puppy now at all costs - at any cost - because you want it, you've got the money to pay for it and you don't want to know how the pup came into the world, nor how and why it might leave it.

Don't be so niave.

Dogs deserve better than that.

Problem is, responsible breeders like these don’t churn out puppies. You may have to wait 2 years plus for a puppy
Problem is you can't always tell that this is the kind of breeder they are because the others still get registered and approved as licenced breeders.

Wait two years? Or much more!

Animal welfare is not insulting strangers because they dared to allow their bitch to have one litter with they vets approval. There are enough animals that are genuinely abused to focus on.

You have NO idea that the OP left a 'mess'.

As for extending the assumption on my situation, laughable! You couldn't be further from the truth but it certainly proves my point!

You know, I looked into breeding my kc registered pedigree bitch. I had several long conversations with my vet, the reps from the relevant breed club, and bought and read an excellent book recommended by my vet (the book of the bitch, if anyone is interested). The testing required alone has made me think very carefully, its a lot to put our girl through, even before the mating, pregnancy and delivery, which my vet advised could cost a couple of grand if there was a need for an emergency c section (which insurance wouldn't cover). I would love to have puppies, our girl is a fabulous example of the breed, and from everything we've experienced so far, she would be brilliant with puppies, but its such a huge gamble on her health and her life, that I have all but decided against it now. Its really not a decision to be taken lightly.

I work in rescue and ppl like you infuriate me, your dog doesn’t need or want to have puppies,unless you were planning on keeping them all or rehoming through a rescue then it’s for money, nobody just breeds for fun.
So yes you’re a selfish idiot
Pathetic and so full of assumptions. If OP was after money, sure she'd have waited 3 1/2 years to breed!

I've read so many negative things about people's experience trying to adopt a dog through rescue centres. I have to say that if this is the normal attitude towards people they know nothing about, it's not surprising.

Raising pups is messy, noisy, smelly, time consuming, expensive, risky, may change your 'amazing pet's' temperament permanently and in this case it's totally unnecessary. They will be with you for a minimum of eight weeks while you trot backwards and forwards to the vet for worming meds, microchipping and if they stay longer than the minimum you'll be looking at vaccinations too. They may have complex genetic disorders you have no way of knowing about because you haven't tested for them
Why are you assuming that OP doesn't all know that (which frankly is no brainer) yet happy to do as a one off?

Some of your 4/5 prospective homes will go cold on you once the pups actually exist (all those allergic children! Those job changes! Those landlords who won't allow pets!), especially as these pups are going to be landing at the most expensive, coldest, darkest, hardest-to-house train time of the year. Around Christmas... In a pandemic
Oh, another able to see in the future! Let's ignore that the very fast majority of dogs go to responsible, loving, knowledgeable owners, shall we? And let's believe that all dogs who come from reputable breeders go to perfect owners who never ask the breeder to take them back at best or sell them on at worse...

@katmarie, it's a small risk, not a huge gamble.

You made the right choice for you and that's fine, it doesn't mean that those who make a different one, ie. the very many are all idiots just for choosing to do so.

We've got an old farm Jack Russell from a looooooong line of working farm dogs. We bred from her, just the once, as we had 5 farmers wanting a pup to continue the excellent ratting, bushing and ferreting skills, all instictive, that our Jack Russell had. She was the only bitch of reproductive age that hadn't been spayed. It wasn't done for profit but for these dogs to carry on the blood lines of farm dogs. All the 5 pups still work in the local area on farms and one has gone on to have pups of her own for yet more farmers in neighbouring counties.

Jack Russells are not expensive dogs, maybe £200 tops. The farm type have long legs and are not nasty but easily trained and have a massively high prey drive. You can't really get these working dogs from KC breeders as they don't exist outside of the very recent Show Type KC JRTs or Parsons.

I once asked a small question about something to do with labour and was absolutely shot to pieces by this board about 8 years ago. For animal lovers you really are quite a nasty bunch. I get exactly where you are coming from, but is there any need to be so bloody awful to the OP?

Personally, I would much prefer to get a puppy from someone like you than a professional breeder who has a number of bitches and therefore struggling to give them all the love and attention they deserve and get rid of them when they become too old
You do realise there is a huge difference between negligent breeders such as the OP and non-professional breeders who are responsible, take relevant precautions, do their research, demonstrate a concern for animal welfare and so on?

The OP has bred her dog without adequate health testing, without being KC registered, breeding an older bitch, and is considering the responsibilities required and is now trying to find a way to get round KC registration criteria.

She's getting her arse handed to her because she's showing a worrying level of negligence and a desire to try and get the KC label in order to price the puppies higher.

@katmarie

You know, I looked into breeding my kc registered pedigree bitch. I had several long conversations with my vet, the reps from the relevant breed club, and bought and read an excellent book recommended by my vet (the book of the bitch, if anyone is interested). The testing required alone has made me think very carefully, its a lot to put our girl through, even before the mating, pregnancy and delivery, which my vet advised could cost a couple of grand if there was a need for an emergency c section (which insurance wouldn't cover). I would love to have puppies, our girl is a fabulous example of the breed, and from everything we've experienced so far, she would be brilliant with puppies, but its such a huge gamble on her health and her life, that I have all but decided against it now. Its really not a decision to be taken lightly.

This is how you start the journey, OP.

I would love to have puppies from my two but I won’t, simply because I love them too much to risk their life.

I even know one would be a perfect mum, as when we got the second, she came into milk just to nurse the puppy.

But I don’t have the money to pay out for every single test I would need go do on her and the dog before breeding.

I wouldn’t know what to do with whelping.

I wouldn’t have the money for an emergency c-section.

I don’t have the time to hand rear multiple pups if mum rejects them or worse dies.

I couldn’t deal with my dog being depressed when her puppies left, and still, I couldn’t handle the thought of her dying because I wanted puppies

@Soubriquet I could hug you. So many people in here who have never had first hand experience of a dog having puppies and spouting off that it is okay. I have seen two perfectly normal dogs die because of being pregnant. Why anyone would put their dog they loved in the predicament that this could ever happen is beyond me.

People who moan about not being able to get a dog from a rescue also annoy me. It is not your god given right to have a dog. They are in reason. And those people who post in this forum about being cross and annoyed they can’t get a puppy from a rescue need to take a good hard long look at themselves.

When, when, when will people click on that a once over from a vet does not a health check make!

Springers can suffer with elbow dysplasia, hip dysplasia, problems with their eyes, their skin, their blood, epilepsy is a growing concern within the breed, ever heard of springer rage? That's a thing. These dogs are highly intelligent animals that need a certain level of stimulus to be happy.

This information is out there, the tests are available and STILL people just think it's a case of sticking two 'healthy' dogs together and that's it.

To even ask this question shows how irresponsible and clueless you are. I literally have no words. Animal rescues are already filling up with the lockdown puppies that are no longer wanted and you choose to breed your dog 'just because'. You are the reason puppy breeding should be properly regulated. Unbelievable.

I am no breeder, and don’t intend her to have any more pups. so it just so happened that you decided now was a good time to let your 3.5 year old dog have puppies, right about the time when you can sell them for £2k a piece and upwards. And presumably if you already have homes for these puppies these buyers will know that the mother isn’t KC registered? Nope, didn’t think so.

I totally get that some people want their dogs to have puppies, and i also totally get that people are annoyed by the rescue process which IMO is a topic for a different discussion.

But the fact here is that anyone deciding to breed on a wim at a time when puppies have doubled in price is never going to look like anything other than a backyard breeder in it for the money only.

I know of at least three people over the past month who had planned to get a puppy and who have ended up finding out the hard way that most people who let their dogs have puppies are in it for the money.

One realised on her way to fetch the puppy it was a scam so didn’t proceed, she went to the local police station instead,
The other did get a puppy and it was ill within a day costing £8000 in vet bills and it didn’t survive.

Another one started to have second thoughts off the back of what she’d heard about the others, so decided not to go ahead, she rang the “breeder” who said that she should be quick, he only had one left.... She left it and rang him about a week later not telling him it was her, and he said that yes, if she came soon he only had one left....

Oh and, you know all those puppies who were seized in Gloucestershire? I know of someone who rehomed one of them after they’d been passed by the vet, and still that puppy has had multiple health problems.

Of course there are some who let their dogs have puppies and there turn out to be no issues with them. It’s precisely because of that fact that people still buy puppies off gumtree, and Pets4Homes etc, but it’s also what inspires others to do the same with only the money in mind.

@dontdisturbmenow

Why do I assume? Because her post gave away the extent of her knowledge and forward planning.

Is it a 'no brainer', though? A scan through the 'puppy survival' threads on here will give an idea how much hard work one puppy can be and how little most new owners expect it. Multiply that by X number of puppies and a bitch and it's a lot to deal with.

Can I see the future? Thirty years in dogs and almost fourteen years at the sharp end of rescue plus training upwards of twenty pups each week, seeing and hearing the end results of impulse and irresponsible breeding on dogs and their families gives me a pretty good idea.

All the things I mention have happened, are happening now (not to mention the annual pre- and post-Christmas puppy dump) and will happen again.

People need to stop believing that it's all the other dogs being bred that cause the problems and their precious baby's litter is somehow different and special.

“Personally, I would much prefer to get a puppy from someone like you than a professional breeder who has a number of bitches and therefore struggling to give them all the love and attention they deserve and get rid of them when they become too old“

It’s not an either or thing though... they aren’t the only two choices.

The problem with someone breeding their pet, however well meant without appropriate knowledge and health testing is that if it goes wrong, it goes horribly wrong.

My last dog was bred by someone like the OP, well slightly more careful in fact as he was KC registered...

But he developed a painful joint condition at 4 months old, had his first operation at 6 months and developed more and more health issues as he got older until after numerous medical interventions, years of trying to manage his pain, massive vets bills and years of restricted to no exercise he had to be PTS not long after he turned 6.

It was quite frankly shitty - for him, for me, he had half the life he should have, both in time and in quality.

Which is why I’m of the opinion that if you don’t know what you’re doing, you’ve got no business breeding dogs... because it’s someone else who has to deal with the fallout of it.

When I wanted a pup I was on a waiting list for a breeder, she doesn’t need to advertise her pups it’s all word of mouth, I then went for a visit with the whole family to see if we would be suitable for a pup (large breed) felt like we were having an interview lol), bitch and sire all hip scored, 5 generation pedigree with show dogs on each side, most importantly the breeder put a restriction on our bitch which states that she couldn’t be bred until she was at least 2 years old and the breeder had to agree to choice of sire, to compliment her bloodlines.

Of course people told me I should breed her and get 10 pups even non KC reg I could get £500 a pup (few years ago), I couldn’t cope with being responsible for finding good homes for 10 pups and using by pet to make money, wasn’t for me, and she’s to daft for showing or anything.

most importantly the breeder put a restriction on our bitch which states that she couldn’t be bred until she was at least 2 years old and the breeder had to agree to choice of sire, to compliment her bloodlines

Out of interest i’ve always wondered how enforceable breeding restrictions are.

What would happen if someone mated their dog at a year old- for a start how would the breeder find out, and second what’s to stop them doing a “whoops, accidental mating, didn’t realise and it’s too late now..”

Surely legal action would cost more than it’s worth?

@bluebluezoo the only outcome is that the pups can't be KC reg when they have an endorsement and are bred without meeting the requirements of the original breeder

People need to stop believing that it's all the other dogs being bred that cause the problems and their precious baby's litter is somehow different and special.

This.

Every person that chooses to breed is adding to the dog population. They all have a responsibility to ensure the best outcome for each of those dogs throughout their lives via the choices they (the breeder*) makes at the very start of them.

*a breeder is anyone who deliberately or accidentally allows a dog to mate and doesn’t immediately remove any pregnancy.

Ah ok thanks that makes sense. Couldn’t think what the “consequences” would be as it can harsly be undone..

Rescues are already packed to the rafters and dogs with nowhere to go are facing death row daily. Imagine how many more will have to be euthanised when all these covid puppies are no longer wanted?