Abortion - The Choice . Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm

[Milliways]

Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm: Abortion - The Choice.
"Five women face up to their decision to have an abortion, describing their thought processes as they made one of the most difficult choices anybody can make, and on which there can be no hard and fast agreement. Beyond the chatter, 200,000 pregnancies are terminated in the UK each year and none is anything less than tortuous and painful - as demonstrated by this poignant film."

think I will have to read that.

It is only recently that it's been realised that people with CP don't automatically have LD's.

And of course if you treat someone as if they don't understand then, so don't engage etc- well- it becomes self fulfilling.

Paul Broks in his book recounts the story of looking after a young man severely brain damaged after a road accident. He said that he assumed his life was worthless and one of pain and suffering (I think iirc he often had muscle spasms etc). Then he saw the man when his mother was visiting, he was relaxed and calm (I think she was cuddling him) and he realised how presumptious he'd been.

yurt you are not alone I was shocked when dd's sw said in a letter that she has LD. found it odd that I have never been told

fio ithink the " poisonous" is directed at me as i called it murder.

As I said before I dont think it should be a choice.

When a baby is created its life begins and I dont think that anyone has the right to end that life.

I did not have any screening other than scans with my three and I was v nervous until the births even after the scans.When my middle child died in the womb at 25 weeks I prayed that she had 'something' wrong with her that was causing her mot to move.Anything but dead.I know how lucky I am to have two healthy children and at my age it could have been so different.But I know hand on heart that given a choice I would never choose to end a life no matter how that life was.

I would choose to terminate a pregnancy if I a 20 week scan found serious abnormalities.

I admire those of you who have chosen not to, but I would have to do what is right for my existing family and me.

Most people don't really have the choice when it comes to severe disability. The vast majority of conditions are not picked up antenatally (or occur after birth). Ultimately it doesn't make a difference, they're your child and you love them just as much had they not been disabled. I know many many people with children with severe disabilities - I only know 2 or 3 who knew before birth.

For about 5 minutes today - I felt pleased that I have a severely disabled son. Becuase it's introduced me to a life I would have known nothing about. Today at his school I didn't spend my time with him (dh did) but I spent time with another little boy with the same disability and he was an absolute sweetie. I felt privileged tbh. The only reason I didn't stay pleased for longer than 5 mins was because I know the cost severe disability has had on ds1's life in terms of his choices. This doesn't make his life less worthy, and I can also recognise how good his disability has been for me. Has it made life harder for us as a family? Yes. Has it made life better for all of us? Yes (except him- which is a big price- but on the other hand he's happy).

Chocolate I read your post earlier, losing a child at 25 weeks must have been awful. I see termination as a necessary evil - I know an elderly lady who did- as a young unmarried woman- give herself an abortion - and that is the reality of making access to termination impossible- but I can understand why you would find that choice hard to understand.

The people you mention are amazing riven but it strikes me as sad (and I've done it myself on this thread) that to 'prove' the value of a disabled life we refer to people who have done extraordinary things- who have done things. People without disabilities are allowed to live quiet lives and achieve nothing and no-one questions their value - yet unless severely disabled people achieve in a way that is somehow recognisable to the non-disabled then it's not valued.

Riven, as a mother os a disabled child noone is ever going be be truthful with you as to why they wouldn't want a disabled child for fear of offending you and so maybe you should stop asking the question.
Noone is saying a disabled life is worth less but they are saying that they don't believe it's life until a certain period of gestation and so feel termination is an option for whatever reason. Most people would have some sort of genetic counselling to try to prevent continuity of suffering and would prefer to have a child who didn't live everyday in the face of adversity.
As I am to have four children ,only, I would like to make sure that each one of them is born to have a perfectly 'normal' life. Should they suffer illness or abnormailty post birth then I would deal with it but if I could stop it prior to birth, say up to 24 weeks then I think I would.

that on this ongoing thread parents of severely disabled children are feeling they have to justify their child's continuing existence. (thinking primarily of the line of posting re:euthanasia of the disabled started by spero).

"make sure"

blimey how are you going to do that then? Only way I can see that guarantee is to not have children at all.

We know why people don't want disabled kids. I'm repeatedy reminded in every day life from comments that ds1 is less valued than his NT brothers. It's not rocket science. But I find it quite interesting that people won't just say the truth and instead try to turn it into some sort of noble act.

"Most people would have some sort of genetic counselling to try to prevent continuity of suffering"

Where the idea of 'suffering' coming from? It's an enormous assumption. People don't automatically suffer because they have SLD's for example. Genetic counsellors have few answers- even if they can tell you yes a child has a condition the effect of even genetic conditions can vary enormously.

Yes some conditions do cause suffering - but not as many as it's used to justify decisions for. And some conditions are not compatible with life. But it's an enormous assumption to assume that severe disability automatically equals suffering. I would imagine that a deliberate death at 35+ weeks of pregnancy would equal suffering, and except for conditions incompatible with life - where there really is only one outcome- I really can't see any condition that would be worse than that. However much supposed suffering we're going to assume.

I'm not anti people terminating foor disability- people can terminate for whatever they like- but I don't think it should be allowed up to term for conditions that are compatible with life.

i think the one that annoys me the most is the people who would choose to terminate because they feel they are protecting siblings.
If you are going to terminate because you couldn't cope, or your relationship wouldn't survive there is perhaps a degree of self awareness in that.
But so often people use their other children.
Makes my DS1 spit ( just a little ). I know times can be difficult but the sibs I have met are the most extrordinary bunch.
It is a cheesy commonplace streeotype which is frankly hugely disingenuos.
Children are hugely adaptable, often incredibly generous and have the capacity for great empathy. My other two DC's are all the more fabulous because of their brother

I just don't think there's anything that would convince me I would be nothing short of devastated if my child had SLD when born. The 40 week argument is one that needs addressing and should only happen in the event of extreme circumstance.
Riven, thank you for your offer but I do not doubt your child is lovely and a joy to spend your life with, but what is my encounter supposed to do? convince me that i should have a SLD child?
I have three young children and to throw a SLD child into the mix would take time away from them that I don't have. Whilst many children benefit from the understanding and empathy gained from have disability in their family I know many children that do feel they 'missed out' on Mum and Dad when a sibling is terminally ill or SLD and, like you, they wouldn't change a thing it doen't negate the time that is not spent on them.

This is my choice and I do not expect it to be right for others.

Posie
i personally have no problem with your choices .

i have some problem with assumptions.
My other two DCs have not missed out on me in any way shape or form. quite the contrary.
i am not suggesting it doesn't happen.
I am saying that to assume it will happen is tosh.
My Dc's are not the result of a harrowing childhood full of deprivation and neglect ( of course I am exagerating but you see wha i mean)
when Charlies probs emerged it just made me even more focussed on my family - all of them. we made more effort to be together and go out together. And i was never complacent that all was ok so we talked a lot and made sure we were all doing all right all the time.
It is impossible to talk about it without sounding Waltonesque but it is true. I have one of the happiest family lives in my circle. I'm not smug - I am grateful.

Of course not everyone could have that result. My issue is withthe very common assumption that no one can. That happiness is somehow a face painted over sadness and that our fun is always with a caveat.
As I said. Some family circs are going to struggle but my experience has been that a family who chooses to can become closer and more focussed on each other. That is ( as always ) never an issue of hours in the day but how you use them.
You are of course entitled to your choice. I too was shocked and grieved desperately when my Son developed his issue at 2 years. But I have to claim the right of experience and say that your beliefs in how you would cope and how your family would change may not be correct. That does not of course negate your right to choose not to have that experience if you can.

how would you know your child had SLDs when born?

For most conditions that lead to SLD's you would have no idea.

There really is a lot of ignorance around this subject.

My first year with ds1 was the happiest year of my life. I suppose he had SLD's then. He may have, he may not have until the end of the year I don't really know and it doesn't really matter. It doesn't make any difference to that experience.

Of course as soon as we found out he had SLD's (at about age 5 I guess) our life suddenly became dreadfully worse (not).

I have to lol at the "make sure"
when will people realise that a lot of disabitys happen at birth. my dd's was caused most likely dud to lack of care at the birth.
you cannot test for that. my freinds ds's was caused by an accident in toddlerhood.
as for protectecting your existing children that is poppycock.
To say that under estimates your children.
i accept fully it is your choice and your right to make that decision. but please don't admire me because I am a mother who loves her dc's equally. that is a mothers role.
(riven I wish I could meet your dd)

Posieparker, you write,

" I would be nothing short of devastated if my child had SLD when born. ...I have three young children and to throw a SLD child into the mix would take time away from them that I don't have."

That goes back to "how does society support those of us that have a child with additional needs". If left to care alone for a child with great needs, we'd all worry.

I won't say it's been easy with our own son. Although his disability is 'moderate', it has meant we have had to change schools and go through hell with teachers and appeals and loss of self-confidence in him from time to time. He's had to fight so much harder for everything, with us supporting him for all we're worth. But he is so loved, just for being him. His friends love him, his family loves him, and everything he can do well is cherished and appreciated. People who care about him really are supportive, really do offer him the extra help he needs now. He's a totally splendid young man.

As for me, as I explained much earlier in this thread, I'm on the autistic spectrum. If my parents had realised, perhaps they would have had me aborted, fearing that 'me as a young child' was what I would be like all my life. It wasn't. I was fortunate enough to have the routine and order and clarity I needed, plus truly brilliant friends who taught me social skills over the years.

I'm still really happy to be alive, and so's son. I have many friends with profound disabilities and I can't find anyone in their lives who wishes they hadn't been born. I also think all siblings find reasons to dislike each other, and feel that they'd have got more attention if their brother/sister hadn't been born, at some point. It's not a reason to want a child not to exist.