Abortion - The Choice . Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm

[Milliways]

Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm: Abortion - The Choice.
"Five women face up to their decision to have an abortion, describing their thought processes as they made one of the most difficult choices anybody can make, and on which there can be no hard and fast agreement. Beyond the chatter, 200,000 pregnancies are terminated in the UK each year and none is anything less than tortuous and painful - as demonstrated by this poignant film."

Yes well said pagwatch.

You're so right about my darkest fear. It's why we're trying to teach ds1 to type.

pagwatch I think you hit the nail on the head in your last bit(and all of it)
she is just winding people up for the fun of it imo.
sadly even mn hq do not see any wrong in what she is saying
which I find very odd. It has made me wonder why there is a sn topic on here tbh.
sadly there will always people who hold these sick veiws. probally why the BNP is doing so well.

Sorry Pagwatch. But I have responded with sarcasm because the only other option appears to be to take these people seriously who keep repeating that I want to murder children.

and yes, i made the mistake of coming back to this thread and finding that they were still chuntering on with their poisonous nonsense. So i respond. i don't take being called a child murderer lightly and its not particularly enjoyable.

I have - admittedly rather childishly - tried to goad those people who seem so eaten up with hatred that they can't be reasonable.

It was you i think who commented that people were reacting this way because I was threatening their children.

I still don't understand how anyone could think that.

the example I gave, I could not see any joy in that existence. None whatsoever. It seemed to be an existence entirely based on pain and would no doubt be brief as this child could not feed himself and needed constant medication.

I am not talking about your much loved children. I am talking about a society so much in fear of death and disability that it would rather Tony Bland starved to death than he got the quick, dignified and painless death he deserved.

I repeat my original question that I put to 2Shoes, which surprise, surprise she ignored.

do you think tony bland's parents were right to seek his death?
If you think they were, do you think he should have been permitted a dignified and quick death?

And i reserve the right to continue to defend myself against ridiculous and nonsensical attacks. Although i will try not to be sarcastic. I agree it isn't very helpful.

O and by the way Mrshadows, that segue into the BNP was quite masterly.

do you see my point Pagwatch??

Yes spero, I too would like to hear what others have to say about Tony Bland

But riven what would you say if that child's parents said to you, we can't bear it, we can't bear to see our child like this, we want to end it in as dignified and as humane a way as possible?

And I don't know how the child where my mum worked was fed - if a tube had been inserted he would have just ripped it out. I assume he had to be sedated to be fed. Most of the children there didn't live much beyond 10.

well said pagwatch. You are right and I think what we should be working towards is a society that cares for and values sn children's lives and uses our immense knowledge, resources and collective wealth to improve them. x

Oh dear god is this still going on?

Spero you said: ?the example I gave, I could not see any joy in that existence. None whatsoever. It seemed to be an existence entirely based on pain and would no doubt be brief as this child could not feed himself and needed constant medication.?. ?I could not see any joy in the existence? ?it seemed to be? are all your own personal opinions. Apart from what you witnessed, you have no actual idea as to whether this child felt that he didn?t have a good quality of life. There is no way for you to know whether he would have been better off dead than alive. Which is why no-one can possibly make judgements on what someone else?s quality of life is like, because we don?t actually know. We can only gage that quality of life based on what we would feel if that was the life we had.

?I don't take being called a child murderer lightly and its not particularly enjoyable.? And yet you were talking about bringing about the death of a child if you?d been able to. To the parents of children with such severe disabilities, that equates to murdering disabled children. Can you not see that?

spero
you say that you simply don't understand the attitude of those on here who find your views so upsetting.
I think that is true.
i don't think you understand their fear and their upset at all and I think that is pretty sad tbh.
Very honest and admirable of you to admit it but pretty sad that you can't apply some dignity to that awareness by acting upon it.

"I could not see any joy in that existence. None whatsoever. It seemed to be an existence entirely based on pain and would no doubt be brief as this child could not feed himself and needed constant medication."

You're sitting in judgment on the value of someone else's life. You can't see any joy in that existence. You have no experience or understanding of that existence so how can you know? What we observe is not necessarily a reflection of what is going on inside. See Carly Fleischman for example - you have to swatch an irritating advert but the video is worth watching. She's described as 'exceptional' but this method is now being repeated worldwide with other people also thought 'incapable'. It's dangerous to assume that you can understand anything about another life just by observations- especially when you have no experience of that life.

I'm just back from an afternoon in an SLD/PMLD school. Some of the children are tube fed. Some would no doubt be judged to have a life with no value. And yes many of the children there are at risk of not making it through childhood.

It's a fabulous place - in part because it does value every child within it's walls.

Pagwatch. I do understand fear and upset. But I don't understand why it would make me 'dignified' to accept that this fear and upset is being expressed in the way it has been here. I think I have given enough leeway to some people out of respect for their 'fear' and 'upset'. I have tried to be measured and fairly respectful. but i just get the same old tired response.

Wannabe, yes i quite accept, I could have completely got the wrong end of the stick, I was only 12 at the time. But that isn't really the point. the point I am making was - what if I HAD NOT got the wrong end of the stick and this boy's 'life' really was as awful as it seemed to be to me? and what if HIS PARENTS wanted to spare him from any more pain?

Its like being in this weird alice in Wonderland type thread. I think I'm typing something quite reasonably clear but what people seem to be reading is that I don't think children with special needs are lovable/can be loved/should be loved and they should all be killed.

Never, ever said that, nor would.

sorry Yurt, just seen your post. I will watch the video.

But can i just get back to the tony bland question? do you agree with what happened to him? I think this is a more useful point of debate than me arguing that I can determine the quality of someone else's life.

I couldn't get the video to work but i did read the interview.

I honestly think we are at cross purposes here. She's clearly an amazing child.

My comments were directed at those who are incredibly brain damaged and who could never engage in an exercise like this.

By 2shoes on Tue 20-May-08 08:42:10
and I do think that there are some lives which on any standard, just aren't worth living because they are full of pain, immobility and abandonment in some institution

your words.
you wrote them. you bring RL people into this to try and make what you are saying right.
do you have a severly disabled child your self?

try reading the thread spero I did reply.

But spero- my point is that no-one expected Carly to be able to engage in an exercise like this. Individuals have done this for a number of years and have been not believed, it is only in the last 2 or so years that this is becoming more widespread (I'm just back from a serious international conference where 'serious' people were talking about this).

My point is that she may not be an 'amazing' child- it may be that many people with severe autism can do exactly what she has done (certainly her story is remarkably similar to others who have done what she's done) - it's that we don't know how to teach the technique.

So for 13 years people could look at Carly and see someone who could never engage in an exercise like that- when in fact she could- but no-one knew.

Lucy Blackman who has a degree and has written a book would come across in the same way - and indeed had no way of communicating until she learned to type in her teens.

Judging on what you see- without experience- without really having any idea how someone else perceives the world is dangerous indeed.

back to tony bland,
the difference imo is that his parents new his wishes. he was only young at the time of his accident. but his parents would have been able to jusdge what he would have wanted. I think it is terrible that they had to go to such legths to give him peace.
but to me that is not the same as thinking it is ok to decide that a child has no quality of life and decide to end it(to me that is murder)
You have now said that you saw the boy you used as an exmaple when you were 12. have you not grown up since then!!
It is normal to be shocked by these scenes when you are young. but most people as they get older learn more about differnt people.
I spend a lot of time with disabled children. some more severe than others(my own is severely disabled) I have yet to meet one that has not got a good quality of life(that includes the ones who are more or less dumped at school)
2 boys I know died very young but there lives were filled with happiness.

my dd goes to a sn school and if you read the book about that school and it's history. you would be shocked at how the children were treated in the past.(I assume you must be over 20) things have moved on since then and will have moved on since you saw that boy when you were 12.

(sorry for any confusion mshadowsnumber1fan is me)

point well made Yurt.

pertinent and moving quote Riven.

what is the book called?