Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy again mateys! Set sail aboard thread 3 where we still wax lyrical about our favourite show, its cast, its music, fan edits, fan fiction and more 😁(there may also be just a little obsessing over our fabulous leads - pictures extremely welcome)!

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Go watch it (on BBC iPlayer), then come back here and join us. But be warned, some of you may find yourself as hooked as we are 🎣.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think it's not for you. But it’s actually a show about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, two full threads and many re-watches later.

If you think this might appeal, do watch it and come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead arrives in episode 3, so you need to give it at least 4 episodes as that’s when the tone changes and the main story starts. It still took me several more episodes to fully appreciate what I was watching, but by then I was hooked and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204
Thread 2 : https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5076581-our-flag-means-death-thread-2-still-utterly-brilliant-and-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=136060611

@MrsBruin The bridal dress was a bit incidental (people just are in our show without much heed of sexuality) and he would have done the same if the 2nd figure had been dressed as a garden gnome, in my simplistic viewing.
What do I know though?

I entirely agree with this with regard to Ed and identity. The bride is the opposite of the groom here, and the groom looks like Stede, so Ed has to take the bridal place that’s left.

I do think it’s a comment on what society then (and still does, possibly) find acceptable though with regard to love and marriage. A man ‘like Stede’ should be joining with a diminutive, upper class, white woman, not a masculine, lower class, man of colour. That cake-topper reinforces Ed’s self-loathing. His reaction to finding out Stede went back to Mary later on reinforces his pain in this regard with subsequent furniture-smashing.

I've only been able to skim this so far, and can't get back for a couple of hours, but @lizziesaurusx and @MrsJellybee have both mentioned 1.4. I don't have any sympathy for Izzy in 1.4 because his little speech at the door is gaslighting at its finest. Every single thing Izzy says to Ed in that speech is demonstrably false. I will try and be back later!

1.4: the first time I watched it I saw Izzy as an up tight, frustrated not very bright or very imaginative middle manager having to do the boring grunt work to keep on track a charismatic, erratic genius. Eg the conversation about Ed's fascination with the little ship/trinkets vs the need for a plan. We identify with Ed and warm to his enthusiasm, but the first time I saw it I could see Izzy's point about needing to focus - lives are at stake - he mentions their fellow pirates having died and Ed is dismissive - it's their job. We've only just met Ed at that point and haven't seen him interact with Stede which is when we start to see more of who he really is. Now when I watch 1.4 I see it through the prism of Izzy's toxicity and desire to control Ed which is a blight on the whole season. His threat to leave, and being coaxed back by Ed, is clearly 100% manipulative and a way to get Ed back doing what he wants.

The fact that Taika had an Izzy/Ed Judas/Jesus parallel in mind for the dynamic between them suggests that there's an element of Izzy having a point. Judas is genuinely concerned about Jesus putting the apostles in danger; a generous interpretation of Izzy's motives would include the concern for the crew that he shows in S2. I don't think it applies in S1 but I think the parallel with JCS for the tension between Ed and Izzy could suggest that Izzy's not all bad?

Of course I'm wondering which clips you would've used for the song from Stede's perspective...

@MrsJellybee There's so much in your post on Izzy but it's late so for now only time to say that I was amazed when I started looking at fanfic categories and saw how much Ed/Izzy stuff there is out there, the positivity around Izzy and some of the enthusiasm for him on twitter. I do think he ultimately has a positive arc, and I’m glad about that because I think most people should get that chance, but he’s at the rehabilitation stage in S2, not the redemption stage. In S1 he’s toxic, manipulative, a traitor, vile to the crew and has been coercively controlling Ed for decades. I don’t see where some of the fandom find positivity in that – or is the pro-Izzy fandom based on S2? I do wish we’d had flashbacks to see Ed and Izzy’s back story of where they met, the dynamic between them back then. The show doesn’t give us much and some of the fanfics make some strange choices in how fill the gaps.

So, Izzy. First, @lizziesaurusx I'm with you in that I won't touch any fanfiction that has Izzy involved with either of our leads. It just wouldn't happen - not least because they only have eyes for each other, but because to me, Izzy's role in the show make it impossible. I don't really understand either why there are so many positive takes of him. I have seen suggestions of racism, but also that he is written to be very like the common trope of ‘long suffering, brilliant side-kick of useless boss’. The irony being that he's the useless one who only thinks he's brilliant. But he plays the role so well that people are seeing the trope and not recognising that it is subverted.

I mentioned 1.4 above and his gaslighting. Izzy is arguing that he's the one holding everything together in the face of Ed's erratic behavious and whims, but even though every single example he gives is false, Con's delivery of that speech is so believable that it's easy not to question it. I had to go back to check, and only then you can see that nothing he has said is true. It's very easy to just watch that scene (and others) and believe Izzy.

@MrsJellybee set out many of Izzy's abusive behaviours so well. I agree with all of it. Plus in S1 isolating Ed, yelling at the crew when they try to be friendly, ignoring Ed when he says what he wants. As well as controlling, Izzy seems narcissistic - always centering himself where he isn't wanted. The 'morning after' intrusion was horrendous. Ed had closed the curtains for privacy and Izzy flung them open.

OK he takes partial responsibility for Ed's kraken spiral with "you and me did this to him", but it was actually entirely Izzy, and he got exactly what he wanted in return - that 9 gun caricature of BB. That's why I think he forgives the toes; it shows BB is back, and that is the most important thing to Izzy.

As for balancing each other out and Ed being complex - those lines show that Izzy just doesn't understand Ed at all. Ed is not complicated. He's a gentle man, forced into a persona to survive. He doesn't want to be a pirate any more. He just want softness and warmth and to be loved. When Ed starts acting ‘soft’ (like Stede), well, Izzy has already shown us that he hates that sort of man. I don't even think Izzy understands why Ed shot him. None of the reasons he gives for it are true.

And he's not sorry until his deathbed, when he admits to having fed Ed's darknes for years. This is his admission that he knew all through S1 that he was hurting Ed - not listening to what Ed wanted but just trying to keep him controlled. And that he had been doing it for years. This is the first time he acknowledges his controlling behaviour and why I think this is the start of his redemption - because it's the first time he acknowledges he has something to apologise for.

I'm still thinking about the crew in 2.1 and 2.2. Even in 2.1 when Izzy confronts Ed (and gets shot), was that to protect the crew or was he just shouting at Ed because he's still trying to tell him what to do? I think I'm too tired still and am going to have to come back to that! It's also something about Ed being passively suicidal, then actively so - hoping he'll die in one of those raids or expecting the crew to kill him sooner? But as they don't, pushing them harder and harder, till Izzy stepped in at the point they were all going to die. My brain is still too mushy to think in a morning!

Of course I'm wondering which clips you would've used for the song from Stede's perspective...

Strong question. Love that 😉

I honestly don’t know because the Muse didn’t move me that way 🤣

Considering Stede is oblivious for most of Season 1. Probably something from the treasure hunt, Stede’s hurt during the Calico Jack interlude esp. the telescope scene. Stede’s confusion after Ed shaves his beard and the beach kiss. Then it would need to be season 2. Stede’s doubts about his self-worth when speaking to the Wanted poster. Stede comforting Ed during the couch seen. Where I would struggle is ‘should I bring him down?’ because that was never on Stede’s radar for Ed. ‘So calm, so cool’, that’s not Stede. And the ‘many men’ bit. I wasn’t sure how to show that for Ed at first as I didn’t want to show CJ or Izzy for various reasons, so I landed on ‘stab me’ as visual metaphor instead.

As for ‘Iggy’: Whilst a backstory might’ve helped in season 3, I don’t think it’s relevant to the main story, and starts to give too much weight to a character who really is a device only. He’s the spanner in the works, the fly in the ointment. He’s a foil to both Ed and Stede. He was important in Ed’s life once, but isn’t now. He’s actually an incredibly unimaginative, socially inept, little incel whose hatred of Stede Bonnet stems from the fact he doesn’t have the courage to be him. In fact, both Ed and Izzy look at Stede and want to be like him, I think, but their reactions to that feeling are opposites. Ed grabs at Stede with both hands and wants to become him. Izzy grabs at Stede with both hands and wants to kill him. Stede’s like a Rorschach test.

@TriceratopsRocks Sorry, we just cross-posted 🤣 I’ll go back now and read your 6.14 post

@TriceratopsRocks The 'morning after' intrusion was horrendous. Ed had closed the curtains for privacy and Izzy flung them open.

I wish Ed had relocked the door. I always think that when we see Stede the night before return to the bed nook with his shirt off, he’s just been to lock the damn door, the lock Ed mended, (whilst stopping at the bathroom for ‘essentials’). When Ed gets breakfast, he comes back and recreates their little underwater world. The curtains remind me of the sea, Stede is all wrapped up like Merstede… but with his hands full, Ed doesn’t re-lock the door.

And they’re starting to have ‘the conversation’. Stede tells Ed he hopes he will return the favour and rescue him, Ed says he wants to avoid such situations, Stede replies not likely in our line of work. This then is where Ed might’ve continued with ‘Well actually, would you consider… the bar and grill… the innkeeper dream…what do you think?’ But no time for that because Mr No-boundaries comes storming into their private space and whips open the curtains. You see the disgust on both Ed and Stede’s face at the behaviour and follow-up crude comments.

It’s that interruption and unfinished conversation that leads directly to Ed’s I-want-to-be-a-fisherman breakdown. Because if they’d had a genuine heart-to-heart about their future, Stede might not have taken the Ned Lowe adoration so seriously and Ed might’ve taken it as a brief interlude, a day of fun, before they left to be together forever. Thank goodness they get there in the end, but that Little First Mate has a lot to answer for.

@lizziesaurusx my 6.21 post was to you. I forgot to tag, sorry 🙂

I do like reading your interpretations and love the details you see that clearly go right over my head. The fixed lock for example, so observant.

Haven't read any fanfic, don't have the time to do so, but thank you so much for whoever sent me a "work-based comedy on a ship" link earlier. It was thoughtful and appreciated.

I see the Ed/Izzy dynamic as being like the first marriage. Izzy has been by Ed's side for years in a subservient capacity as they built the Blackbeard brand. Like many first wives who are subsequently thrown over after being part of the reason for their husband's successful business, I wonder if the sympathy you see online for Izzy comes from the first wives club?

As Ed "has a type", I don't doubt that Izzy knew from the moment he met Stede that this would be the point that he lost Ed, would be replaced and the Blackbeard brand lost.

Izzy knows Ed well and knew he would find Stede physically attractive and that the novel temptation of his wealth, status and standing would make him irresistible. Izzy already knew Ed was looking to move on and initially did what he could to delay the inevitable by trying to stop them meeting.

Once the meeting happened and it was worse than Izzy expected, as in Ed fell in love rather than just the suspected lust and fascination, Izzy starts to pull out all the moves he has to keep everything he and Ed have built together. The love aspect was not something Izzy had predicted and it's clear he hasn't seen Ed like this before and doesn't understand it by his "done something to my boss's brain" comment.

I'm almost reminded of the War of the Roses film as Izzy and Ed's Blackbeard Brand breaks down and they become increasingly more damaging to each other as their "divorce" progresses.

I think another example would be the conversation with Lucias about how Izzy's leg was eaten by sharks as this is so reminiscent of how an outsider cannot ever understand what happens in a "marriage" that has endured so many years.

I think the turning point in Izzy's redemption arc is when he shoots Ed, that's where he finally realises it's over and lets go. From then on we start to see the acceptance that Blackbeard is over and Izzy acknowledging that what Ed really needs is Stede.

It's easy to say LTB (a Mumsnet favourite) but not so easy to leave the bastard when you've invested your whole life and built something successful together. It also rings true that it took something truly catastrophic to get Izzy to finally release Ed.

Just my take on it, feel free to disagree of course :)

@2pence yes, I think a lot of people see Izzy as a disgruntled ‘first wife’. Jenkins has reinforced it with statements such as ‘he’s like a jilted spouse’ and the shooting of Ed in 2.2 as ‘their divorce’. I’m not sure I entirely agree with that reading. What does help me though is the link I’ll put below about genre. I posted it in thread one, but I think it’s time for a repost. It helps me understand Izzy a bit better and why he’s so upset.

Another take I have seen a few times on Tumblr is that the Ed and Izzy breakup is the same as Simon and Garfunkel’s. Art/Izzy wants to keep singing ‘Bridge over Troubled Water’ for the rest of goddam time, whilst Paul/Ed, who is bored out of skull by it, has moved on and is making the album ‘Graceland’. I guess Stede is Chevy Chase 😆

fuckyeahisawthat.tumblr.com/post/681089155019816960/while-we-like-to-joke-about-izzy-being-in-the

Thank you for that link again, @MrsJellybee . Despite my feelings about Izzy, the different genre idea does help - particularly as his S2 arc feels like he is gradually switching over from 'toxic alpha' genre and into muppetland. On a slight tangent, in the training montage, all Izzy's methods are from toxic alphaland and come over a bit bullying. However the point of that montage might not actually be to teach Stede anything at all (and he never uses anything Izzy shows him), but in fact to be for Izzy to spend time with Stede and the crew in order to integrate him better into muppetland, which does happen to some extent. But although it helps, I still struggle to forgive Izzy, especially when he is still 'reframing' things almost to the end. Could Izzy's death partly be because he still has one foot in toxic alphaland where death really is real?

@2pence I think I understand what you are saying with your take on Izzy, It's just different to mine :) but, as you say, it's always good to be able to discuss alternative opinions! I just think Izzy never really knew Ed at all and their relationship entirely depended on Ed continuing to play the Blackbeard role. In that respect Izzy was the one in charge. But Ed had different roles/personas that he played with different people so I can see why it might be hard to let go of 'your' version of Ed. It's so important to me, though, that Izzy confessed on his deathbed to exerting control over Ed "for years" - refusing to allow him to stop being BB and simply be Ed. You are absolutely right that it's very easy to say 'LTB' and so much harder to actually break free.

Izzy and Ed are in one of those massively toxic codependent relationships - the type where both would probably be much nicer with other people (as proves to be the case).

Time for something lighter… here’s Ed and his scrunchy smile 😌

https://www.tumblr.com/blakbonnet/754832223551864832/ed-scrunchy-smiles-for-adamarks?source=share

I agree that the genre subversions were very cleverly done. The Ed/Izzy relationship was already crumbling and I suspect this toxicity ramped up with Ed wanting out of the lifestyle.

Prior to meeting Stede, toxic alpha land was all Ed and Izzy knew and Izzy got a shock. I suspect he truly believed that Ed would shag this soft lavender scented pretty plaything, burn his face off, take his identity and then ultimately fail in his bid to escape the toxic lifestyle he'd come to despise.

Even when he was referring to Stede as a pet Izzy still didn't catch on and couldn't see what was in front of him. But then first time I watched it, neither did I.

Had Ed followed through, retired himself off as Stede Bonnet then I suspect Izzy guessed he'd not be able to pull the fuckery off for long, if at all, and soon return to their toxic alpha land co-dependency. Ed was talking about dying anyway so it was a gamble worth taking for Izzy.

I do think Izzy's epiphany came when Ed decided to give him what he asked for. Here you go, have some Blackbeard, how do like it Izzy?

I'm pleased to announce that Spotify now plays "The Chain" to me at least every other track

Hehe mine keeps playing me High on a Rocky Ledge and Perfect Day :) Plus, bizarely, after Perfect Day it often plays me something called These Days by an artist called Nico. I had never heard of Nico, or the song, until Spotify introduced me to it. Why it chose to, I'll never know. Maybe it wants me to start a playlist of songs with 'Day' in the title? My Spotify is a complete mess though. My music tastes span about 800 years! Chuck a load of Cryptid podcasts in there and it hasn't a clue what to play next, half the time😁

She sang with the Velvet Underground - so the connection is Lou Reed - Velvet Underground - Nico. It's very clever! I'm getting loads of sea shanties 😂

Oh so there is actually method behind the spotify madness then! Thank you for that info. Re the sea shanties, are you listening to Joel Fry's little lute ditties a lot then? I wish we'd had more of those.

Yes! I really enjoyed them and would have loved lots more

So, I watched 2.2 the other day but didn’t get around to posting my usual update, so I’m doing it now. As you probably realise by now, as well as stopping me from jumping around episodes randomly, this is really just an excuse for me to gaze at lots of pictures and then post a few 😁

We get Stede remembering YWFTW v1 – that slightly different version. I love how the ‘flashbacks’ aren’t actually flashbacks, but a different take. The way the writers play with repeated scenes in this way to show how memory is unreliable or to offer a different perspective is one more item on the long list of incredibly clever things they do.

Ed's breakdown in full flow. He is at his most beautiful here, yet Taika managed to imbue him with that perfect measure of desolation mixed with a touch of menace. Poor Frenchie is terrified and I don’t blame him!

The sunset on the Red Flag for Lucius/Pete reunion. It’s unearthly – a bright pinky peach. It’s romantic - and not dissimilar to the sunset we get in 2.8 as the crew sail off leaving Ed/Stede together.

Olu, Olu. What did they do to you, Olu. You really aren’t that bumbling incompetent they turned you into on the Red Flag. I loved you in S1.

Plus we have Bitchy Lucius and Izzy’s Clint Eastwood moment.

But what I really wanted to include here is this link to an interview with David Van Dyke, the VFX superviser. I found this one fascinating and I thought of it again today because of that pinky peach sky I already mentioned.

https://www.awn.com/vfxworld/sailing-led-stage-seas-our-flag-means-death

Oh, and of course you get some pics too! Includes one of the sky, and Jim and Archie - I love those two, and had never really thought about how clean and detailed Archies tatoos are.

You want to watch Fisherman's Friends then. If only for James Purefoy looking rugged 😁

@TriceratopsRocks that’s such an interesting article, thank you for posting it. The technical stuff went over my head, but I get the concepts. I’ve read criticism of the Season 2 look, that it’s washed out and doesn’t have the same colour-richness as Season 1. Are people not understanding the tone-shift of Season 2? I think it’s beautiful. I love the indigo-blue clothing against peachy skies. The washed-out look in the gravy basket is entirely accurate.

I’m disappointed to learn that not only was Taika not on that cliff-edge, but also didn’t fall from it! Poor show, Taika. I mean it’s only a thousand-foot drop.

With regard to the first YWFTW. I noticed the other day that in 1.10 when Ed is about to release the red silk, his flashback is again slightly different. I think it’s the same as the first one, but zoomed out further. I would need to see all three side-by-side, but I don’t think I have enough devices. Might need to commandeer DH’s laptop too and appear fully-insane in my research.

Oh, that’s why my Spotify keeps playing ‘I’ll be your mirror!’