Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy again mateys! Set sail aboard thread 3 where we still wax lyrical about our favourite show, its cast, its music, fan edits, fan fiction and more 😁(there may also be just a little obsessing over our fabulous leads - pictures extremely welcome)!

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Go watch it (on BBC iPlayer), then come back here and join us. But be warned, some of you may find yourself as hooked as we are 🎣.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think it's not for you. But it’s actually a show about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, two full threads and many re-watches later.

If you think this might appeal, do watch it and come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead arrives in episode 3, so you need to give it at least 4 episodes as that’s when the tone changes and the main story starts. It still took me several more episodes to fully appreciate what I was watching, but by then I was hooked and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204
Thread 2 : https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5076581-our-flag-means-death-thread-2-still-utterly-brilliant-and-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=136060611

Reading all this, Taika is so not a ‘lazy’ actor.

He's such an odd mix of shy, excitable, self depreciating and blowing his own trumpet. He's a complicated man... (so much of my daily speech now seems to be peppered with lines from the show😁).

I think his sense of humour just doesn't always translate, especially in the interviews that don't really have any content (like the Wired one - I mean, it was funny, but 5 minutes of that sort of stuff is enough ime...was like a Dave Gorman thing). He's obviously rather mercurial too and what you get probably depends a great deal on the mood he is in, the rapport with the interviewer, if he's slept etc.

You do get actors who are invariably very professional and on-message with all the marketing but he's not one of them, is he?!

I've been enjoying the Christ analogy analysis! I really missed a trick not coming on here for a bit of advice before the poetry cover lesson from hell.

I also wanted to recommend this:
archiveofourown.org/works/54404716/chapters/137809144

Shows she can manage a low-smut historically fairly informed long form piece and makes a nice break from all that diving (also my phone now keeps sending me videos shot from the top of the 10 metre board, woah). It's basically an attempt at a Season 3. If you fancy reading it, maybe today as AO3 is having maintenance tomorrow and last time they did that they broke it!

I remember that! We had about 3 or 4 days of black out and my equally obsessed mate and I were saying, ha, just what we need, this will break the spell.

Spoiler, it did not 🤣

I had an unexpected day at Glastonbury Festival yesterday so had many glorious hours to explore theatre and comedy and circus and expand my interests a bit…however spent the entire time dreaming about Glasto AU plots with Ed and Stede meeting in various ways including the aerial circus scene, think of the possibilities!

Also saw a fabulous, moving and funny Kate Bush tribute, I’d really recommend it. https://www.withoutkatebush.com

I think his sense of humour just doesn't always translate

Definitely - I don't think either false modesty or 'bragging' are seen the same in the US. We're more likely to get it here in the UK than they are. But he might sometimes be trying to tailor it to the US and not getting it quite right. I know that's something Rhys has talked about.

You do get actors who are invariably very professional and on-message with all the marketing but he's not one of them, is he?!

And thank goodness for that!

Sorry I meant to tag @Phineyj there!

@lizziesaurusx @TriceratopsRocks and anyone else interested in JCS Mary Magdalene and show meta.

I promised I'd be back although it took a little longer than I intended. Spent most of the day in Ed's blanket fort feeling sorry for myself.

Instead of a line-by-line commentary on the song and how I think it relates to Ed S1 4-8*, I thought I'd make it visual. Well, I had 90 minutes + ET to kill. I'm new to videos and the cuts are a little more ragged than I would like, but I hope you like it.

*Other interpretations are allowed and encouraged :)

Wow @MrsJellybee , that's fantastic! You've done such a good job at marrying the lyrics with the scenes you have chosen. And far more worthwhile than a game of football. I am impressed 👏👏👏

@TriceratopsRocks thank you. It was a bit of a pain in the arse as she sings so slowly. And what to do with all the instrumental. Oh well, drinks montage. Why not. 🤣

I'm just amazed you got that done in 90 mins + ET.

@TriceratopsRocks I had a lot of clips already from other vids. It was matter of deciding and ordering. And not being too pedantic. 😆

So, a few days ago I watched 2.1 but got totally sidetracked by that bit of Coleridge. Because it seems so long ago, and this is a stunning episode, I watched it again tonight (followed by 2.2). I had to mention some of my other favourite 2.1 bits (mainly as an excuse to post some screenshots):

• Stede and the crew's encouraging little gestures when they are pimping out the Swede to Jackie
• The bridegroom looks bored and miserable and the bride looks like she wants to stab him. That wedding boat might be pretty, but that marriage would have been as miserable as Stedes!
• Fang and Frenchie comforting Izzy. I love this pic and it's a shame we don't see the full effect in the show, with Frenchie holding Izzy's hand. It shows just how much Stede's approach has changed them as a crew
• We learn Frenchie's "bottle it up" method from 1.1
• Izzy proves he doesn't know Ed at all, despite believing he does
• Archie has arrived! Big yay!!
• "Oh look - running water"
• Stede does like a bit of flattery, doen't he (on meeting Ricky)! It shows that low self confidence is still there
• Ed’s breakdown begins in earnest 😭. I would have shot Izzy too. How dare he invoke Stede’s philosophy when he’s the one who forced Ed away from it and into the Kraken.
• Joel Fry is stunningly, heartbreakingly expressive in these episodes.
• I adore Jim, Fang and Archie and the little demon puppet boy.

And now my PC is being commandeered so I'll have to post about 2.2 tomorrow!

Ed’s breakdown begins in earnest 😭. I would have shot Izzy too. How dare he invoke Stede’s philosophy when he’s the one who forced Ed away from it and into the Kraken.

Massive fallout on Tumblr yesterday after Con O’Neill referred to Ed and Izzy as ‘soulmates’ at some meet and greet. Clearly hasn’t watched or understood the show he was in.

soulmate abuser.

The bridegroom looks bored and miserable and the bride looks like she wants to stab him. That wedding boat might be pretty, but that marriage would have been as miserable as Stedes!

Thank you for drawing attention to this @TriceratopsRocks

Amazing Tumblr post dropped an hour ago on the cake toppers and the show’s attitude to marriage (this is why I don’t want our boys to have a wedding, sorry)

www.tumblr.com/cuddlytogas/754771813406588928/there-was-some-twitter-madness-recently-where?source=share

Except that it was only one tiny part of Ed's soul and the entirety of Izzy's. You know Ed will be fine with Izzy gone. Izzy knew he couldn't be fine with Ed gone.

@BeBraveLittlePenguin If it was a part of Ed’s soul, it was malignant and I’m glad it was removed.

Blimey. I know Con interacts a lot with his fanbase. I wonder if some of their influence is rubbing off on him. It's a very different comment to some of the ones he used to make about the Ed/Izzy relationship. The Tumblr post I saw recently which summed up what I think about their relationship is this one. Anyone here who's spent any time on the relationships board here will find it very familiar.

www.tumblr.com/naranjapetrificada/754534975252070400/oh-hm?source=share

I've said before what I think of Izzy. I definitely see him as Ed's abuser and I think his deathbed confession was only the very start of his redemption arc. I actually drafted a big long post once that said exactly that in a lot more detail, with examples of his abuse, how insidious it was and how Ed's past made him susceptible to it. But then it felt a bit too 'ott' to post and I only ever used bits of it.

So it's unsurprising that I also think 'soulmates' is exactly the wrong description for what they are to each other.

Izzy does have 3 moments in the show where I fully support him. I watched one of them last night in 2.2. I think of it as his Clint Eastwood moment when he emerges onto the deck, in the storm, to stop Ed destroying the ship. The others are his speech to Ricky and his deathbed confession. He is a phenomenal antagonist and I love Con's portrayal of him. But he will never be anything other than Ed's abuser to me.

Hehe I do understand this, @MrsJellybee . But I don't care! I still want that wedding. But the difference is that when I say wedding, I don't see it at all as a traditional marriage. All I see is an opportunity to stand up in front of their friends and express their love and commitment to each other. So like Lucius and Pete's ceremony, but in finer clothes and with pretty flowers - just because it's Ed and Stede here. Lucius and Pete have always been that bit ahead of our boys in their relationship, and I saw their ceremony as a nice precursor to what I am convinced was coming in S3. I mean, we all saw how Ed looked at Stede in the Lu/Pete wedding 😍

@TriceratopsRocks I fully agree with your take on Izzy. I don’t have the energy to engage further with the constant need to make him seem better than he is. I used to have some sympathy with him in 1.4, but I think even that has waned for me now. I read somewhere once (I can’t find the link now), that the show originally had him down as being a former member of the Siete Gallos which Jim is taking their vengeance upon. I think that was supposed to come out in season 2. But the fan reaction to Izzy after season 1 was so positive the writers decided to give him a redemption arc instead. I actually agree his redemption starts on his deathbed.

I love Lucius and Pete’s matelotage because that is what it is. I love that Lucius has a blue ribbon around his wrist for his ‘something blue’. Okay, Stede and Ed can have a matelotage.

I’ve sacrificed lunch again to post here. This show is the best diet plan I’ve ever been on. 🤣 Back to work.

@MrsJellybee Thank you so much for the video - it's just fantastic ⭐⭐⭐ and I'm in awe of your technical expertise as well as the way you've matched scenes to lyrics, particularly the very early days. Ed's face for 'let my feelings out' is perfect and I love where you've put the clips from YWFTW. And Ed leaving with CJ - perfect! Although the bit about running every show fits Ed more, I still think the song could be sung by either of them.

Thank goodness for extra time⚽

Izzy: I agree that there’s no way Ed and Izzy can be seen as soulmates: he’s Ed’s abuser and his jailer and I don’t understand a positive fan reaction to him after S1. He doesn't deserve that and it’s why I don’t read Izzy-focused or Izzy/Ed fanfics – I just don’t want to engage with his character. At first I did have some sympathy with him having to deal with Ed’s increasingly erratic behaviour in 1.4 and, from what he says there, the time leading up to then, but then that behaviour is caused by Ed being trapped within the prison Izzy has constructed for him, though I don’t think we realise that on a first viewing.

The thing that complicates it for me is that it seems likely that he was himself abused and experienced trauma and a fairly brutal life, as has Ed. Ed does terrible, brutal things in 2.1 and 2.2 but I love him despite this and want to be able to feel compassion for him and forgive him and believe he can change. So do I have to make similar allowances for Izzy too and believe that he too can move on? Or does his coercive control of Ed mean he’s forfeited this compassion and understanding and we shouldn’t look at his own previous experiences of trauma? Izzy and Lucius’ different approaches to moving on from what they suffered from Ed are interesting: Izzy seems willing to forgive Ed for the toes and the leg. Is that because he realises his own culpability, or because he believes that it’s more corrosive to not forgive? Either way, I think it’s a sign of emotional change.

On the other hand, his instincts in terms of caring for the crew, as evidenced by his behaviour when is briefly captain, are a world away from Ed’s instincts and the way he behaves with the crew when he’s emo Ed. But if we look at the way he is with the crew, I think Izzy’s redemption arc starts when he cries after the gift of the unicorn leg and the note from the crew – they’re showing kindness and care towards him and, like Ed, I suspect he’s never really had that. Then there’s the Clint Eastwood scene mentioned above. In 2.2 he acknowledges to Stede that he is partly responsible for Ed’s destructiveness and needs to try to make amends: ‘You and me did this to him and we cannot let this crew suffer any more for our mistakes’. I also think that he makes an effort to show Ed and Stede that he’s supportive of their relationship, which is needed after he’s been so antagonistic. He does it when they’re together, in the morning after scene where he also shows that he sees Stede as captain, then also individually – talking to Ed he refers to Stede as Ed’s boyfriend, and he admits to Stede that he was wrong and that Stede is good for Ed.

I realise I sound like quite the Izzy apologist and I really don’t think I am, but I do think that his redemption arc is seeded from quite early on in S2. But he has a very long way to go and I agree that at the end of 2.8 he’s still at the very beginning of that journey in terms of recognising and apologising for what he’s done to Ed.

@lizziesaurusx your comments mean so much to me. 🥲 Thank you.

I had such a visceral reaction to the song with regard to Ed, and then I saw you had mentioned it the next day too, I just needed to create something from it. It sort of made itself. I totally agree there is a lot of Stede in there too because they are soulmates. It’s such a powerful song. It reinforces, for me anyway, someone who believes they aren’t loveable being offered unconditional positive regard, and struggling to accept it. Struggling to realise their worth. Who was it mentioned that on thread 2? Sorry, I can’t remember. It was an amazing insight into Stede’s attitude to people. And obviously traditionally Christ’s.

I think JCS mirrors the show in flexible ways and I love that.

To revert to cake toppers for a moment. I’ve always thought that Ed saw a teeny tiny Stede and in his grief painted the bride to represent himself so that they would be a couple. The bridal dress was a bit incidental (people just are in our show without much heed of sexuality) and he would have done the same if the 2nd figure had been dressed as a garden gnome, in my simplistic viewing.
What do I know though?
Last week when the level of fanfic recommendations hit a new (and welcome) high, I thought we’d probably reached the fandom stage of ripping up and devouring a raw seagull ….but subsequent in depth and thoughtful discussions proved me quite wrong.

@lizziesaurusx The Izzy issue is complex. It’s amazing how a fandom can be so divided on a character.

I think for me, Izzy is always inserting himself into situations where he isn’t wanted or his opinion isn’t called for. He’s the king of unsolicited advice, gaslighting, stating the bleeding obvious and getting it arse-backwards.

‘You and me did this to him and we cannot let this crew suffer any more for our mistakes.’ Debatable. Stede didn’t tip Ed into Kraken-mode. That was Izzy threatening Ed with violence or worse if he continued to act as a gender non-conforming man. Stede did do something to Ed. He broke his heart. But blanket forts and marmalade are within the realms of normal healthy expression.

Telling Ed he saw him throw his leathers overboard. Course he did. He’s a bloody stalker. Then telling him to ‘listen’ to his feelings about that. Thanks, Doctor.

‘You’re good for him. You balance each other out’. Nope. It’s not a Yin Yang situation as Ed and Stede are not that different. This isn’t light/dark, angel/devil, femme/masculine or any other binary opposition. That’s simply reductive. Ed and Stede are the same person born into completely different life-circumstances. What they do is allow the other to be, unconditionally. Stede’s got it honed by the end of season 2, and Ed is getting there. He’s still in recovery, but he absolutely wants to do right by Stede.

‘You know what he did when I said I loved him: he shot me’. Just no. Is Izzy gaslighting himself here? Ed’s reaction to being told he is loved is to shoot someone? Crime of passion was it, Izzy? In fact, Ed loves you more because you got shot. Stede was simply left. Dream on. His reaction to Izzy’s ‘I have love for you, Edward’ is to simply blue-screen him. He flips out at the hypocrisy of Izzy’s ‘talking it through’ comment after forcing Ed to shut down his feelings and gnc behaviour. Then he blames the situation on Ed having those feelings in the first place. I’d have shot him somewhere else. Then the head.

’Ed’s a complicated man’. Nope. He’s a complex man unlike Izzy who’s a one-trick pony with his horsey leg (thanks, Stede). He’s not complicated. He wants to be gender-nonconforming when he wants to be, plus have warmth, food and intercourse with orgasms with Stede. And he doesn’t want to be a pirate anymore. That’s it.

The only honest thing I ever hear Izzy say is on his deathbed. ‘I fed your darkness’ for years and ‘Blackbeard… I needed him’. Izzy admits to being an abuser of Ed’s knowingly and wittingly for his own selfish needs for a very long time, and he knew exactly what he was doing.