Our Flag Means Death. It's utterly brilliant and I am obsessed!

[TriceratopsRocks]

I'm sure I found a thread on this series a while ago, but now season 2 is out I've looked back and I can't find anything apart from the renewal petition.

For anyone who hasn't come across it yet, I would thoroughly recommend. It starts off as a sort of workplace comedy set on a pirate ship, sort of in the style of Ghosts, and with a similar fanbase to Good Omens. When the 2nd lead character arrives at the end of episode 3, it starts to change and it only hit me two thirds of the way through season 1 that I was actually watching a very different sort of show to the one I thought I had started watching.

From that point it's phenomenal. The attention to detail is superb. Both leads are clearly neuro diverse, from abusive backgrounds and damaged because of these. They both want what they think the other one has. It's about them discovering themselves, accepting themselves for who they really are, and healing. There is comedy, but also heartbreak and despair. The show handles these so sensitively and accurately, down to minute details, and Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby deserve every award under the sun for their work here.

I don't think I've ever obsessed about a show as much as this one. I've tried to make this not too spoilery in case some of you want to watch it, but really I just want someone to talk to about it! I've already watched it countless times and the more I rewatch the more I appreciate it. I said I was obsessed and I really am!

The show has sadly been cancelled, despite its popularity, and the producers are currently trying to see if it will be picked up by another network. I have read that they are keeping an eye on the iPlayer numbers as part of this, so I also wanted to shamelessly plug it here 😁

If any of you haven't seen it and fancy giving it a try, it grows into itself in the first season and you really need to give it at least 4 episodes (episode 4 is where the main story really starts). Its not a show I would have thought to watch myself (DD wanted me to watch it with her) but I'm so glad I have.

I don't really know what I want from this thread really. I want more people to find it, but I also want to just talk about it and obviously can't do that without more spoilers than I've already given. Help me out people!

Plus the two leading men are Gen X-ers full of unresolved trauma.

{Sorry this thread moves so fast that's from a page or so ago, from @MrsJellybee )

I think that’s a huge part of why I love it – a love story between two middle aged people still trying to work out what and who they want, both in terms of a romantic relationship and in terms of community. They have baggage and trauma and uncertainty and are not quite sure who they are, but they’re still actively wanting to find out and are never presented as being too old for change, hope, new possibilities. And while they’re both beautiful in different ways, I love that they also look their age and the show doesn’t try to present an unrealistic botoxed version of them, but allows them to be seen as sexual and desirable despite not being in their 20s/30s. I recently watched an episode of S1 followed by one of S2 and while it might just be the lighting, I was sure that Ed looks wrinklier in S2 (maybe partly because no beard?) - another show might have tried to gloss over that but I'm very glad they didn't.

Yes that’s the one. I think this has been a bit of an adventure for both of them settling into more dramatic acting, I bet they were a real comfort to each other.

With pleasure 😍

I read somewhere the other day that the bathtub scene in 1.6 was one of the first scenes they shot. Apparently, Jenkins wrote it to be humorous, and I think we still get the residual from that ‘Love a good maim/Is that still on the cards? /Doggy heaven… is that a pirate term?’ But what I don’t think Jenkins expected was the pathos with which the scene is played by both leads. And apparently it coloured his whole view of the tone of the series. It was also meant to be unrequited love (BB towards Stede), and again, I think we get residual from that with Ed’s character arc being way head of Stede’s. But it did leave me wondering what on earth Jenkins’ intentions for this show originally were. I reckon the tone of the first three episodes was meant to carry on throughout. Instead we get a tonal shift at the end of 1.3 and then again at the end of 1.8. I think we have Rhys and Taika to thank for the show we have. Their earnest chemistry made the show runner rethink the entire thing, delve much further into trauma and character motivation, and allow Ed’s feelings to be requited.

That is fascinating. If they had kept the tone of 1-3 it wouldn't have had anything like the impact it has. I know that DJ wanted the focus to be on the relationship - he said so clearly and often - and there did seem to be a change from early drafts to what we have (there was no kiss in 1.9, for example). But those 'comedy' lines in the bathtub scene work so well to bring a bit of contrast to an intensely emotional moment. I'm amazed that was shot first. We have so much to thank Taika and Rhys for.

I think we have Rhys and Taika to thank for the show we have. Their earnest chemistry made the show runner rethink the entire thing, delve much further into trauma and character motivation, and allow Ed’s feelings to be requited.

Thinking some more @MrsJellybee . "Earnest chemistry" is such a good description. They are intensely believable as a couple desperately in love. But we've seen them in interviews, like the one that @BillStickersIsInnocent talked about; they seem to have total trust in each other and such a deep friendship that comes across as platonic love. It's not surprising they portray romantic love so well. And it's the trauma and motivations that make the show. Thank goodness they went down this road, and that they did it so well - taking the time to get right so many tiny details. The writers really seemed to understand trauma, neurodiversity, disability, loneliness, being an outsider, not fitting in - it makes me wonder how they did so well - could there be something in their backgrounds that means they 'get it' like they do, or are they simply impecable researchers, even under time pressure? They are all brilliant, I know that much!

there was no kiss in 1.9, for example

Really?!! There must’ve been some sort of declaration of feeling planned else we would basically have been watching ‘Sherlock’ all over again.

This is also what I love, @lizziesaurusx . I get annoyed watching shows where everyone looks like a model - and even the people who are supposed to be 'plain' are actually stunning but just wear glasses or something equally ridiculous. I love that the central romance is between two flawed middle aged men and that they, and the rest of the cast, are just allowed to look like normal people. And yes, we know Taika and Rhys are both utterly gorgeous, but neither are they the typical Holywood type. They are allowed to look their age - wrinkles and little bellies and all. I mean, they are pirates, but they all just seem so normal. The diversity and the disabilities that aren't even mentioned. Spanish Jackie's wooden hand? It's just there. I don't think they even acknowledge it, do they? I feel like Stede saying "I love your chin, naked or otherwise". I love the cast, with all their normality, all their flaws, accepting each other as they are and just treating each other like people.

Apparently there was a shoulder bump or something. Definitely affection. But not a kiss (this is from someone who has photographed pages from the first draft, which is available to view somewhere in the US).

Edited to add - is this where I confess to not having seen Sherlock either?

Well, @TriceratopsRocks, put it on your list forthwith! (Sherlock). I found the Hound of the Baskervilles really scary in their version. Even though I knew the story well and knew what they were doing, I am still a bit funny about being alone at night sitting by my French doors. Brrrr. Every appearance by Mark Gatiss is worth the price of admission alone and Andrew Scott is amazing! I can take or leave Martin Freeman but I did like him in it. Plus you get to see Battersea Power station before it got turned in to a (quite nice, but soulless) shopping centre.

OK, fic recs people

These are to my taste. Might not be to everybody's. They're all explicit in places (some in a lot of places), violent in places (although no more than the show really) and if you read 'No Stranger to Monsters', please read the tags and warnings carefully first. None of them are suitable for reading at work unless you work from home! And then you'll get nothing done (don't blame me :)).

I like long, multi chapter fiction with lots of character development, some respect for history and a sense of place. And a happy or at least happy-ish ending.

'Semaphore' I think particularly captures the show's mixture of high drama and complete silliness. And in 'No Stranger to Monsters' Ed gets a lovely new outfit. Hell or High Water is loooong...novel-length and with a sequel in synopsis form to boot. Plus a number of original characters so avoid if that's not your thing. I thought they really added to it though. 'Love Led Us Here' makes some use of the real history, rather well, and uses season 2 in flashback. They're all set roughly in the correct time period (I'm not keen on AUs).

Hell or High Water by Mottlemoth:
https://archiveofourown.org/works/38102629/chapters/95179876

Semaphore by komodobits:
https://archiveofourown.org/works/39353175/chapters/98484018

Love Led Us Here by revanchistsuperstar:
https://archiveofourown.org/works/41658585/chapters/104496756

No Stranger to Monsters by thriftshopcrush:
https://archiveofourown.org/works/39047328/chapters/97674906

Thank you for all of the fanfic recommendations. I haven’t read much as I don’t find some well-written, but I will certainly give all of these recommendations a go at some point.

Sherlock is superb. And I have to agree Andrew Scott is probably the apex of the show. I was pretty obsessed with Sherlock a few years back. Not OFMD level though.

But the queer-baiting is horrendous! Either make it canon or don’t mention it!

@TriceratopsRocks a shoulder bump? Saucy! I presume the stabbing scene and foot touch (which we know was improvised) meant it needed to ramped up further. I’m so glad they went there. Why wouldn’t they kiss? Ed was prepared to die for and then sign his life away for Stede. It was a pretty chaste kiss as well… which I adore.

@TriceratopsRocks @lizziesaurusx I absolutely love that these two characters are played by men in their (then) forties. The characters need lived-in experience. Imagine trying to convey world-weariness with two 28-year-olds. They are also natural-looking as is everyone on the show. All have such individual faces and charm. It’s such an antitheses to the homogeneous beauty standard we have been force-fed in the last fifteen years.

I’m presuming a lot of us here are Gen X-ers. One of the last generations that didn’t talk about trauma or feelings when growing up. It’s amazing to see two people of our age group dealing with their past traumas. Accepting their idiosyncrasies and flaws, and knowing they are still worthy of love.

One aspect that made me think was the deft way casting people from diverse backgrounds was deftly handled. It is a matter of controversy these days but they seemed to manage an element of colourblind casting - characters of colour are accepted and inhabit the world as equals (probably quite true to life in the pirating world where everyone was an outcast of some sort and your skills and usefulness mattered more than your social status or race).

But it also firmly confronts the racism of the time - from the lecture from the indigineous chief when they land on the Island with the English captives to the way the black crew members (Frenchie, Olu and Roach) are spoken to and about by the English soldiers and the European aristocrats.

I also appreciate the number of indigineous/first nations actors cast - not something seen much in shows outside of Australia and NZ (obvs inclding Waititi himself)

Ok Sherlock will go on my watchlist too then. It's going to take me forever though. It's probably lower down my priority list because I do sometimes find Martin Freeman a bit annoying!

Re 1.9, I love that kiss too. Ed was so nervous! And Stede didn't know what to do, bless him. It made it so sweet 🫠

Absolutely yes to all this.

Reminds me a bit of Lord of the Rings recasting Aragon just before filming, because they realised they had cast an actor too young. He also needed to be world weary and for us to be able to see the effects of that life on his face. We have that too in all our cast. They are all just so normal, and real, and it's so refreshing.

I’m reeling from the idea that the bathtub scene was written as full on humour, and that the 1.9 kiss wasn’t going to be there at all. I read that DJ and TW both said that when they first discussed the show they agreed the romantic relationship between Ed and Stede was the reason to make it, but without that intense intimate connection in the bathtub scene and then the kiss in 1.9 it wouldn’t just have been queer-baiting, it would have made no emotional sense at all. There has to be not just affection but love, even if they don’t 100% define it as that at that stage. I wonder what they would’ve done with Ed’s emotional disintegration if all there had been was a shoulder bump – there has to be so much more at stake in terms of the fact that he’s told Stede how he feels, given up his old life for him, and feel’s he’s been rejected and is therefore unloveable.

Also, I love that kiss because it’s so tender, but I also love just before, when Ed isn’t quite able to look at Stede when he says ‘you’, and then there’s a slight hesitation before he looks straight at Stede to see his reaction. Just perfectly judged. Those little moments of earnestness and vulnerability are why we're all so emotionally engaged with the characters and I can't imagine it otherwise - a completely different show.

Also, I love that kiss because it’s so tender, but I also love just before, when Ed isn’t quite able to look at Stede when he says ‘you’, and then there’s a slight hesitation before he looks straight at Stede to see his reaction. Just perfectly judged. Those little moments of earnestness and vulnerability are why we're all so emotionally engaged with the characters and I can't imagine it otherwise - a completely different show.

I’m so addicted to how Taika and Rhys play the kiss scene. The hesitation before ‘you’ in which Ed fails to look Stede in the eye. He then glances around, but not fully, then finally meets Stede’s eyes. I love how Stede then raises his eyebrows in surprise and gives a wonky side smile whilst stuttering. He looks down at the floor and that’s the moment Ed swoops in for the kiss. The way Ed plays with Stede’s collar (he does this in the wall slam kiss too) and shifts his body weight to get closer. When they start talking again, Ed is practically on Stede’s lap. I noticed in the bathtub scene, Ed pauses before ‘you’ there also, but manages to look Stede in the eye. Ed finds it easier to tell Stede he was planning to kill him than that he does to tell him he’s in love with him.

@lizziesaurusx totally agree with all of your other points too. I can’t believe it was originally going to be unrequited. I feel the finished product is somewhat of a happy accident, an unintended alchemy that took on a life of its own.

I too am amazed that the bathtub scene could ever have been considered 'funny'. To me it is a scene of a man suffering a panic attack because of PTSD. I can't say that the 'love a good maim' line causes me to smile, let alone laugh. The whole thing is deep and emotional and not at all humourous. None of the lines are delivered with a lightness that suggests they are meant to be funny. Well not in my opinion anyway.

If the whole series had continued in the vein of the first two or three episodes I doubt I would have bothered to watch it more than once at most. I am there for the deeply emotional relationship between Stede and Ed. The comedy is the least important element to me.

This is so true and you put it so well.
As you say, everyone in the pirate world was probably an outcast of some sort. It was just so refreshing to see a diverse cast, all accepted for who they are, without the need to provide commentary or justification. Why can't other shows manage this?

It was a shock when we were confronted with outright racism, for example in 1.5 and especially in the pilot, when the white cast got to play 'noblemen' and everyone else had to be servants who were insulted. It was just so jarring.

I fully agree. For me too (and I suspect all of us) it's all about that deeply emotional relationship. It's why I can't really understand it working as unrequited love. The bathtub scene is truly heart wrenching. There is so much trauma that the show handles with such profound care and sincerity, particularly this PTSD attack and Ed's Kraken breakdown. Maybe it was originally planned as more comedy than drama, but it quickly changed course, and thank goodness it did. It probably explains why the network had issues, and why the bit of marketing they did didn't really hit the right demographic.

There's a bum note for me in the first episode when the English officers are offered more tea and one of them says 'No, it's disgusting' or some such comment. There's no way that a connoisseur of fine things like Stede would have put up with inferior tea!

The writing is usually on point but this one jarred for me.

I can't say that the 'love a good maim' line causes me to smile, let alone laugh…

I think it’s meant to be black humour. Because obviously it’s horrendous, but apparently okay if you don’t actually kill anyone. It’s an incredibly poignant line considering Ed goes on to maim Izzy.

Yes I am sure you are right. I tend not to think of the show as blackly humourous personally. Obviously episodes 201 and 202 are very dark but I don't find myself smiling at those either (well not the bits where Ed is totally out of control that's for sure).

They are two of my favourite episodes but not for the LOLs.

@CarlaH ’Skin him first. And use the snail fork’.