Baby Reindeer - Netflix

[Spratt]

Got a day off today so I’m binging Baby Reindeer. Two episodes in and it’s great so far, I see that it’s previously been a stage show but I’ve never heard of it so looking forward to finding out what happens. It’s about a comedian being stalked by a woman in her 40s.

"Anti-comedy" is mentioned in the show

ah ok, must have missed that.

Thank you.

I didn’t like it. Not sure if that’s because it made me uncomfortable intentionally or because he seemed so unlikeable or what.
Hated the comedy bits-like a pp I didn’t understand why they were so bad.
And wasn’t it supposed to be funny in parts? I didn’t find any of it funny.

I think the issue here is that he never reported his absuer, so there's been no arrest and no criminal trial. He doesn't explain why he doesnt report him, so we can only assume that he felt unable to do so. I think that that is what the 'revisiting the abuser' scene was trying to portray.

It is heartbreaking that so many people don't report rape, and that the conviction rates are appalling.

However, RG tells the story and seemingly leaves it wide open for the world to potentially point fingers at the most 'likely suspect' for his horrendous abuse.

The abuser is portrayed as someone in the industry. Perhaps RG should have changed the story to it being a total stranger for the programme, thus avoiding any wrongful association of such awful crimes.

He either thought this through, or he didn't.

@Netaporter

Tricky, The makers of the show have done a terrible job of making the characters unrecognisable (especially Martha)
If Richard Gadds rapist is named to the public it ruins the chance of a fair trial.
When I faced my rapist in court I was told very clearly by the police that until the trial was over to not speak or mention any details, especially on social media.. making a show on Netflix takes it to a whole new level.
On the other hand, Richard Gadd knows that it's his word against another's with no evidence.. Meaning going to the police would be pretty pointless, rape ruins peoples lives I can understand why a number 1 show on Netflix might help with the feeling of justice being in unachievable.

I’m so sorry to hear of your situation. I hope you got justice 💐

Insert 'over your head ' emoji here

@Netaporter

Thank you, and yes I got justice.. it wasn't an easy process at all. I'm very aware that thousands of people a year don't get to face their abuser in court (so I'm sympathetic to those who choose not to report) it was a charity stepping in that made the police take me seriously.
For anyone who is affected..
Rape Crisis UK and The Centre for Women's Justice are both amazing.

I just finished watching it now, very mixed feelings!

As fiction, I thought it was effective and compelling. Well written, excellent performances (especially from the actress who plays Martha). The portrayal of abuse, grooming and how complicated, inescapable it can get feels emotionally truthful. The bad comedy that made me cringe is an integral part of the story: Donny has no stand-up talent, the rapist grooms him by flattering him and denying this fact, and the only way he eventually gains a measure of success is by trauma dumping in public, instead of making people laugh. Donny is a tragic mess of a person. It's not exactly a fun watch but it grabs you, it's a successful work.

However it's kind of impossible to take it on its own terms as art and detach it from the autobiographical aspect, because so much has been made of it. Would it have been successful if we didn't all know it was autobiographical, is there an aspect of ghoulishness here that we're all indulging in? It can't be emotionally healthy for Gadd to relive and play-act all of this.

Also, I think he has the right to tell his story, it's his life, it happened to him, maybe it's cathartic- but I find it disingenuous for him to now say he wants people to stop speculating about the identity of the real-life people. It was inevitable that this would happen. If he really wanted to protect the anonymity of anyone involved and avoid speculation, the show wouldn't have been made, there's no way around it. In the year of our Lord 2024 there's internet and anonymity no longer exists. And the whole "gaining success by trauma dumping" thing becomes a bit dodgy when it's a real thing someone is doing and not a plot point in a fictional story.

I don't know, overall I was left feeling a bit... dirty.

The articles I posted upthread were redacted, as in, I took all names out. They were dated 2000 and 2002 written by Lynn McPherson, early in her career.
Richard Gadd said in an interview with GQ magazine:
We’ve gone to such great lengths to disguise her to the point that I don’t think she would recognise herself.

That's laughable, given the woman in the show and in real life

• was Scottish with a law degree
• in the show, claimed to know politicians, in real life claimed to be a Special Advisor to a First Minister in Scotland, she was allegedly obsessed with
• in the show, was struck off from a lawyer's. In real life was sacked from a trainee post and allegedly then started stalking the lawyer and her husband. Claims she resigned. Had been taken on as a trainee three times.
• in the show, Gadd reads an article Serial Stalker Torments Barrister's Deaf Child - a three-year old hearing-impaired daughter. In real life, Stalker Targets MP's Son - the four-year old disabled son of a lawyer and an MP. In both fiction/real life social workers were maliciously contacted.

You could say that the writers had simply found a different stalker and based the show on her instead, had there not been tweets between Gadd and the woman, connecting the two. One of the MPs is mentioned by name, a phrase is used in the show that was tweeted and the actor chosen to portray her is similar.

If that's him disguising her, I'd hate to have seen the undisguised version.

I honestly hated the whole thing, but felt absolutely compelled to watch it, I literally couldn't look away.

I was really quite afraid of Martha, she's so so easy to identify and it does check out pretty well as being her. I fear this is going to blow up in a way that should have been foreseen.

Excellent post, @ICantThinkofAnythingClever I think you really nailed it, there.

The only way he eventually gains a measure of success is by trauma dumping in public, instead of making people laugh
Well, yes. He probably knows that.
Gadd won the 2016 Edinburgh Comedy Award for Monkey See Monkey Do.
Gadsby won the 2017 Edinburgh Comedy Award for Nanette.
Both shows to a degree monetised their trauma.
The trend of confessional "traumedy" was prevalent again last Summer.
Laughing through the pain: Edinburgh comics relive true-life traumas | Edinburgh festival 2023 | The Guardian

Having scrolled back through her Facebook posts it seems like the homophobic / transphobic shit posting either started around the time this series came out, or at the very least ramped up since.

I've only gone as far back as April 1st but even then, her posts were a lot less antagonistic. It's clear she's a bit of a dick even then with her moaning about the area etc, but all of this vitriol and bile about gay men and transsexuals does (in my opinion) seem like it could be her lashing out in response to Baby Reindeer.

I don't think it's any coincidence she has hatred for those demographics.

So to look at things sarcastically prison really helped her reflect on her own behaviour.----
Let's hope she's not dumb enough to break her restraining order.

I think is disgusting that Martha has been portrayed as exactly the same as the lady in real life.

Yes, she is an awful person, but she is mentally unwell. To say she won't recognise herself is ridiculous when Martha is a carbon copy of her right down to her career choice, frizzy hair and rampant transphobia. Of course it was only going to take a matter of hours before she was tracked down.

Now this vulnerable adult, no matter what she has done and no matter the shite she spews, has been made even more vulnerable than she clearly already is. It's not hard to pinpoint the area of London she lives in and someone could easily turn up and find her. People already struggle with separating the acting from the actors and go hunting people portraying "bad" characters down so they can punch them in the face in the street, never mind an IRL person being portrayed so recognisably. I fully believe that this woman might actually be in danger now.

I was already feeling skeevie about the series no matter the "good intentions" of it portraying a stalker more realistically than the norm and a female stalker too. But this is absolute bullshit. "OH i sympathise so much with this mentally ill and vulnerable woman who made my life hell. I know, lets make a netflix drama about it, portray her exactly how she is irl, out her career, and then claim she won't have any clue it's about her. We can just tell people not to speculate and they will totally listen to me, some random comedian half the UK had never even heard of,".

@HolidaySwears I totally agree. I also think RG has got a fucking cheek asking the public to stop speculating. This is his doing alone. As a writer for the Independent has just said, yes the public have a responsibility, but it is "baffling that neither Netflix or Gadd saw this coming"

I'm also wondering how the other actors are now feeling about this, now. In particular, Jessica Gunning. I'd imagine it must feel a bit fucked up, and I'd be wondering if I'd been some kind of pawn in the whole game. It's sullied the entire story, which is sad.

I can only conclude that he's done it all deliberately to get back at his stalker and abuser, but he's used others - I assume unknowingly - in order to do so.

I don't believe there were ever any good intentions. If Gadd honestly thought this was OK, then his viewpoint is warped and he needs to address that.

The more I reflect on the series and the various ethical issues, the more uncomfortable I feel about it.

The whole 'on stage confession' thing was really dark and I don't believe for a second that he would do that spontaneously. He hadn't told anyone in his real life, and then he tells a whole massive room full of people? Obviously it's fictionalised for the series, but I feel like it's manipulative. People have come to see a comedy show, not an anguished one-sided therapy session. When people left the audience, he heckled them. But this would be triggering for a lot of people; it's not all about him.

The thing about him masturbating over his stalker is obviously meant to expose his shame around his sexuality, but it's a weird thing to admit to your stalker, who is presumably going to be watching. And in a way, it feels... I don't know exactly. Sketchy. Manipulative. Shaming of her and also of his partner at the time. I'm not saying he shouldn't write about whatever he wants to write about, but when there are real life people involved, it's feels a bit disturbing.

I think it's clear that RG liked and encouraged the stalker's attention in the beginning. He found it funny and he initiated intimate moments with her in order to keep her attention on him, even though he says himself that he knew she was dangerous. It sounds like he is still kind of obsessed with her. Maybe he just really, really, really wants to be famous and once he realised she was a serial stalker, he knew he had a good story. The fact that he didn't go to the police even when he knew who she was and how much danger he was bringing to the people around him - that didn't make sense to me. He didn't have to admit to the rape at that point. But he lied to his partner and said that he'd reported the assault when he hadn't. It's like he didn't want her to stop.

With the man who repeatedly sexually assaulted and raped him, it's hard to process him returning at the end and saying he wanted to write something with him. Except maybe it's a similar thing; in his mind, the power has flipped and now he's the one who can manipulate and abuse.

I found a couple of the episodes extremely difficult to watch and there's a lot of trauma there to process. Honestly, I think more should have been done to fictionalise the characters.

I don't see the problem with exposing her, I said on another comment, that happens all the time on 24 hours in police custody.
we see entire investigations and are told names, shown photos, family members the lot, What's the difference?
The majority of criminals probably have mental health issues.
And again can you all honestly say If this show was telling a story of a woman being stalked and harassed, bottled in the face and pushed up against a wall and sexually assaulted by a man you'd really care at all about what mental issues he might have?

Yeah, I do see your point. But it does feel different because of the male/female dynamic.

It was RG who put the women around him in danger when he decided not to report. So I don't think it's as simple as it would be if we're talking about MVAW. But I accept that maybe I'm more willing to think about her situation because she's a woman, and that's probably a double standard.

I agree with you. I don't think anybody has an obligation to protect an abuser, male or female, least of all the victim.

There's no such thing as a perfect victim and as unlikeable as some people think he is, the way she behaved is totally abhorrent.

Let's not forget she has form, even targeting an MP's disabled child.

I don't think it's a bad thing that people know who to avoid, it also means the next person might be quicker to report it if they know the history.

We don't defend male abusers, even if they do have mental health problems.

I agree. If I was raped, or stalked by a violent man, would I have some kind of moral responsibility to keep quiet and make sure I didn’t tell anyone who they were? So that they weren’t embarrassed about it publicly?

Of course not.

Why is a man expected to keep quiet?

It's a saddening double standard isn't it?

FWIW I was a 'bad' victim aswell. I made sure everybody knew my rapist was a rapist. He had to leave the town and I have no regrets 🤷🏼‍♀️

The shame wasn't mine to bare and it's not Richard Gadd's either.

Fair play to him.

one hopes he cleared the part with his dad revelation before the show aired.

Yes it is @BlackFriYay. I am sorry that happened to you.

I sexually assaulted by a man who got away with it; the CPS decided not to take the case forward as there was not enough evidence for it to be worth it.

He told people locally that I was making it up (I was also a “ bad victim” who failed to protect his identity!).

If I had the opportunity to do what Richard Gadd had done, and to show the whole world who he was, I would take it. I would also pick an actor who looked exactly like the sex offender but change his name, if that was what I needed to do for the Netflix legal team.

It is well played, when the alternative to a justice system that doesn’t provide justice to so many victims.