Anyone watched the shamina begum documentary on bbc 2 ?

[hellobethyname]

Just watching it now

I've changed my mind . She was a child , groomed , no idea what she was getting into .

I don't think we should demonise one child forever . There are much bigger threats out there that people don't even realise.

I've not seen this but I have been listening to 'I'm not a monster' on BBC sounds.

That is worth a listen, whatever you think of SB. The journalists follows up with other people eg he spoke to her 'husband' and asked why he had married a child.

Grooming is perpetrated by women as well as men. I'm no expert, but I recall seeing the same strategy (of a Muslim woman grooming/radicalising young female teens) in much the same way as appears to have happened to SB and her friends. It would seem, therefore, to be a long established practice by extremist groups.

A few points were made in the documentary which reminded me that most us in the UK have little idea what it's like to be raised as a first/2nd generation immigrant in this country. The conflict between a very conservative household and the need to belong and have some autonomy.

It's also noteworthy that I read countless threads here where ppl are reminded that older teenagers are little more than children, with underdeveloped brains, strong emotions and very confused. So often parents and step parents are told to remember that their teen is effectively going through a second toddler hood. I also recall so easily how idealistic one is from teens to young adulthood. The desire, need, to put life into neat boxes and how attractive religion can seem, with all its answers and the feelings of security and righteousness that can generate.

SB seems to have been detached
from the societal integrations which would prevent much questioning - and is that not an opportunity groomers make use of?

There is still something very odd - her lack of feeling for her family. It makes one wonder what was going on at home.

Lack of shock at those decapitated heads too, but I remember three things: one
that we're generally much less squeamish when young. Two, that this occurred when she was deep in isis' control and a self preservation instinct would be at play. Three, she was being further brainwashed at the time.

Pp are right- she doesn't come across as generally likeable at all.
That doesn't mean she is irretrievably evil though.

My view having watched it;

She's a bit thick!
She's unlikeable
She's very damaged by her experiences
She's not a real threat terrorist-wise
The government are wrong to have renounced her citizenship
She should be brought back to face the consequences of her actions
If we were all judged on the stupidity of our actions at aged 15, we'd all be screwed
She's still very immature fir her age

I think Shamima is highly intelligent and not "a bit thick".
I would say she is very mature. She has been through a lot and had to grow up early and quickly.
I think she is potentially a huge threat terror wise. She remains a poster girl and figurehead for ISIS.
She can potentially recruit others and potentially continue to work for ISIS within the UK. She doesn't convince me that she is remorseful or even regretful and seems more self satisfied than anything.
I'm not clear as to whether it would be better for her to be tried in Syria than the UK.

Blip
Agree, I don't think she is thick either.

A 15 year old who, like many 15 year olds, is a child, impressionable, able to be groomed, but not thick. The level of planning the girls put into leaving was meticulous. Clearly able to follow directions and take required steps.
Like you I have concerns about her ongoing risk.

My concern is she was a child when groomed and this needs factoring into any decision about her. I also think it's shitty for our country to fail to protect children from radicalisation then wash our hands and try to palm her off on Bangladesh. I'm also deeply uncomfortable with how quickly people are willing to adultify certain children and blame them for their own grooming. The idea that we should give adults a free pass to groom children for criminality, marry and have sex with children and then say "the child knew what they were doing and clearly wanted it" is a very very problematic path to go down.

It does seem unreasonable to leave her without citizenship on the grounds that she can apply for Bangladeshi citizenship which may or may not be granted and seems tenuous.

My concern is she was a child when groomed and this needs factoring into any decision about her. I also think it's shitty for our country to fail to protect children from radicalisation then wash our hands and try to palm her off on Bangladesh. I'm also deeply uncomfortable with how quickly people are willing to adultify certain children and blame them for their own grooming. The idea that we should give adults a free pass to groom children for criminality, marry and have sex with children and then say "the child knew what they were doing and clearly wanted it" is a very very problematic path to go down.

Totally agree

Blip
It seems to be one in a long line of questionable decisions made by agencies and our government who have a duty of care for British children.

The way I see it, do we really want to be a country where:
An adult grooms a child for crime, and society says "probably wasn't groomed, the child knew what they were getting into".
An adult grooms a child for child marriage so society says "sure marry children, the children can choose whether to consent or not".
An adult grooms a child for sex and society says "well they were a teenager and they chose to have sex with older adults. They asked for it really".
An adult gets a child pregnant multiple times and if the child discusses the impact it had on them society says "what was the child thinking getting herself pregnant in those circumstances. She knew what she was doing".
An adult grooms a child into religious radicalisation and society says "but they're a teen and MY CHILD would never sign up to anything like that, so the radicalised child should have thought a bit harder about it".

If people genuinely believe that 15 year old children can give free, informed consent to all the above, they better also be happy giving predatory adults a free pass to groom any child in this country, unless of course the above only applies to certain types of children (which has concerning echoes of the way children in Rotherham were blamed).

SB should not be given a free pass for her actions, but not should we be letting the adults who failed to protect her off the hook and letting the country wash it's hands of her.

Her husband comes across as really nasty.
She admits he was violent to her.

I thought it was interesting that when asked if he'd like to get back together with her if he had the chance, he said "of course, definitely, she's my wife". And she said there's no way she'd ever go back to him as she'd never "put up with that crap" again!

I don't know if she's trained herself to appear nonchalant as a coping strategy, but she certainly doesn't come across as someone desperate to get home. She's looks quite calm, almost taking a "whatever will be will be" attitude.

Also I was astounded at how little was made of the massive police blunder, of giving the girls letters to take home to their parents, asking if they could be interviewed about the other missing girl. As if they were going to give the letters to their parents!! What were the police thinking??!

Her husband comes across as really nasty.
She admits he was violent to her.
Agree and I'm going to stick my neck on the line and say any man that wants to have sex with a child is probably a nasty man. He was in his 20s I believe. What would a man in his 20s see in a 15 year old child?

This is the conversation we absolutely need to be having.

The legal debate about removal of her citizenship is one thing. But intelligent adults in this country ought to be more than capable of having a discussion about how society fails to protect itself - children and young people included - from grooming and radicalisation.

I thought it was interesting when the husband said about her having no life experience because she was a child so was a blank sheet of paper/blank canvas. I took this to mean that it would be far easier to mould a child into behaving in anyway the husband wanted.

And his answer to the question about marrying a child was that it's normal in Syria. As if that made it ok.

Agree 007. It's one reason I think it's important to set aside strong feelings towards one particular child and consider the implications of what is being advocated, and the precedents it sets.

The adultification of children and the erosion of safeguarding responsibilities is not a good path to go down.

On a petty level, part of me thinks it's a joke that people like me and my colleagues sit in regular safeguarding training, refreshers on identifying signs of radicalisation in children, CCE, CSE and other relevant areas, but people further who are even more responsible for this area don't seem to give a damn about protecting children and are happy to encourage adults to blame children for adult grooming and adult safeguarding failures.

Well the cynic in me would like to respond that that allows MPs to absolve the government of any responsibility and lay the blame squarely at the feet of underpaid, under-resourced and overstretched front line services.

But you know, a strong government is clearly only one that can appear to totally condemn criminal behaviour 🤷

Firstly an u nderage child is not deemed competent enough to withstand an adult grooming her for sexual purposes, but they are fully for radicalisation ? I feel there is some anomaly there.
secondly people are not allowed to be left stateless. I do not understand why the UK think she is someone else's problem.

@anya I agree but it seems there's a long standing law that allows us to deprive a citizen of their nation state. The rights and wrongs of that law and the rights and wrongs of it being used in this manner are additional discussions that need to be had (and I assume form part of her appeal).

She isn't stateless though.

I thought she was. I thought she didn’t have citizenship anywhere else?

Why is Begum in a camp and her husband in jail?

I thought she was. I thought she didn’t have citizenship anywhere else?
She could have applied to Bangladesh for Bangladeshi citizenship through her mother. The way Bangladesh citizenship works IIRC is that a child of a Bangladeshi citizens have a dormant status and they apply for Bangladesh citizenship until they're 21, after which it expires.

The UK government decided that they'd remove her UK citizenship based on the fact that she was under 21 so could apply for citizenship elsewhere.

Bangladesh have said that they're not willing to take on someone who has barely, if ever, stepped foot in the country and hand citizenship to someone who was radicalised into a terror group just because the UK government stamps it feet and wants to feel big and powerful.

The UK government on the other hand wants to play to the domestic audience and are all too happy to gloss over systemic failings of our country, instead deciding it's reasonable to strip British citizenship from a child who was born here, raised here, was groomed here and it was our country who failed to safeguard her.

I don't. Blaming the police when they had no idea what she was up to.

@dustydewdrop

*because by all accounts she didn’t just go out there and see to the housework and reproduce *

Actually, this seems to be all the first hand accounts actually say. Anything else appears to be supposition.

Watched it now, it is the same journalist as the podcast, which I recommend even more because he talks about how he got access to her husband and the experience of meeting him.

I've always said if she is dangerous then Britain has the best resources to deal with that and if she isn't dangerous there is no reason to not allow her to return.

Can you imagine how she would be perceived in Bangladesh? The last of the London sisters who made it to Syria? ISIS are still active in Bangladesh. She would be a celebrity to an ISIS group.

The camps will close at some point, so what will happen to her then?

She was groomed in the UK.

The police botched with the letter and may have accelerated their departure.

She was trafficked by someone who was probably a Canadian asset.

@ Andante57

Her husband was a fighter, with women it is less clear. I doubt the authorities have enough space in prisons for all the women and many of the women have children. I think it is just logistics.

She was groomed in the UK.
This.
So why is it Bangladesh's problem? why should Britain be allowed wash their hands of her and let her become some other states issue? She was born, reared, educated and subsequently groomed and radicalised in the UK. So ultimately let down by UK services. I don't know a huge amount about her, I live in Ireland but grooming children for terrorism is nothing new. It happened all the time in Northern Ireland. Children from disadvantaged backgrounds, broken homes, vulnerable were groomed into terrorist organisations such as the IRA. They were made feel part of something, looked after, felt belonging, they were easy pickings. Don't recall any of their citizenships being stripped even though they were likely bombing and killing UK citizens. Happens all the time with drug gangs, children used as drug mules in local neighbourhoods for a bit of money and new runners and before long they are controlled and embedded in the gang and the "tasks" get bigger and more dangerous but it's too late they can't get out.
The only difference I can see is that Shamima left the UK and went to another jurisdiction so she could no longer be protected by UK services, she was 15 so still a child, not sure why social services did not have a child protection responsibility for her under child protection legislation?
Ireland recently brought back an Irish woman who also left and went to joign Isis. Her citizenship was not stripped, she was born bred Irish, family Irish she even worked for the Irish armed services. Converted to muslim and was subsequently radicalised. Her and her child were brought back by the Irish government and she was arrested on return and found guilty of being a member of ISIS. A lot of people were not in agreement with her being brought back but there was a child involved. I think the child is now in the guardianship of her Irish family. She was an adult when she went and not a vulnerable child like Shamima but seems to have been treated a lot better than Shamima. Link to case below:

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61634100