Anyone watched the shamina begum documentary on bbc 2 ?

[hellobethyname]

Just watching it now

I've changed my mind . She was a child , groomed , no idea what she was getting into .

I don't think we should demonise one child forever . There are much bigger threats out there that people don't even realise.

I wonder if, given this is obviously so personal and upsetting, this sort of online discussion about it is not useful for you. I dont mean that sarcastically at all. Just seems like this is very upsetting and personal for you. I’m not sure you’ll achieve anything other that getting yourself angry and distressed. I know I’d find it hard to engage in a discussion like this about something that was linked to traumatic death of one of my loved ones.

@Weallgottachangesometime Yes thanks I am removing myself from the discussion. I watched the documentary and was fuming to see the comments on here but should have known better. Thanks for your kind words

I think if one of your family had been beheaded, thrown off a building, burnt alive in a cage or kidnapped and raped multiple times by her mates you might look at it differently. Too many comfortable bleeding-hearts here crying for the wrong people.

I still don't quite know why it's a 'bleeding heart' thing to talk about due legal process, grooming, brainwashing etc.
Not sure who's 'crying' for Begum particularly, either? But it all seems to be part of the same rhetoric.

If she was a 15 year old boy who joined Isis, participating in rapes and beheadings and wanted to return as an unrepentant adult male would posters be saying he was a poor groomed boy, let him back into Britain?

I still don't quite know why it's a 'bleeding heart' thing to talk about due legal process, grooming, brainwashing etc.
Me neither.It's odd seeing how willing people are to abandon concepts of legal process and safeguarding children.

I feel sick to the stomach thinking about what she participated in and don't trust that she isn't a risk to the UK, but she was a child in our country, groomed in our country, was able to travel from our country to fight and she's our responsibility. We have a criminal justice system, we have organisations working with radicalised people, we have prisons and secure hospitals. It's for us to deal with.
The idea other countries, often with fewer resources than we have, should be responsible for cleaning up British mess is such an arrogant stance. It feels like harking to the idea of good old Britain thinking they own half the world and want to tell other countries what to do.

If she was a 15 year old boy who joined Isis, participating in rapes and beheadings and wanted to return as an unrepentant adult male would posters be saying he was a poor groomed boy, let him back into Britain?
Yes I would be saying he should be back in the UK facing the UK criminal justice system because I don't believe that we should let British children be groomed, then wash our hands of them.

It's really difficult for many people to separate the (jusitfiable) emotion and talk about something objectively.

I agree. Doesn't mean we shouldn't, though, otherwise where would we be?

Well, exactly. I agree with you, too.

I don’t tend to sympathise with terrorists who facilitate the rape of women, even if they have rebranded themselves as a New Looking clothing wearing any girl from the estate.

I saw this last night. She was sitting there in Western dress and all i thought whos to know once the camera stops rolling that she is in the full islamic dress.Presumably she must wear it in camp in Syria But are we being manipulated and played by her and her lawyers .That more young women will identify with her more in modern clothing?? She wasnt very remorseful at all. Never said she was forced into marriage. That her and her Husband were matched like a dating site. She was obedient to him. Had children presumably in her room in Raqqa by herself maybe ?? She accepted her lot by the looks of things . The fact she denies ever seeing isis barbaric videos has been blown out of the water by previous interviews. She is in a kurdish controlled camp so was probably afraid to say too much on camera.
There ia no way back. If she returns she is an isis poster boy for the regime.She probably has a fan base already . The biggest deterrent to others joining isis is to continue to make an example of her. She deserves no kindness .
She was young and stupid but a fool dunno
She may still be working for isis
This documentary case in point is placing isis fromt and centre on millions of tv screens.
She enjoyed her life with her husband- certainly wasnt screaming down the phone to her parents to be saved .

The BBC appear to love advocating for her

You're confusing advocating with journalism.

I have the polar opposite view. The Yazidis & Government of Syria want justice to be done IN Syria- as in for Begum and others to stand trial in Syria for their crimes and, if convicted, go to a Syrian prison and serve their time. Many foreign nationals who were in ISIS have already be tried, convicted, sentenced and are in prison- Begum’s Dutch husband is one of these currently serving time in a Syrian prison.

Syria does not want arrogant British people/government saying that a former British citizen is too ‘special’ and should be whisked away back home to be given a slap on the wrist and treated like a victim. Because let’s face it, the media narrative isn’t that Begum should come back to a U.K. prison cell.

Her victims in Syria do not want her to be able to just flounce off to the U.K. where they have good reason to believe she may be let off with CBT and a bit of counselling.

All this opinion saying we should just bring her back, that’s British arrogance. Internationally, you do a crime in another country, you face justice in that country. Begum is asking to be a special case.

Because of all her appeals to return, they can’t hold her trial until it’s all settled. She lost the appeal to get her citizenship back. But her legal team are still fighting against her standing trial in Syria.

I think there would be (rightly) uproar if she were to come back to the UK and be let off the hook.

I thought the area she was living in/where the camp is wasn't controlled by the Syrian government? If I've got that wrong though that would alter my view a little, but not much given she was a child when she was groomed and our country has spectacularly failed these children.

As far as I'm concerned adults who go over can be tried in the country where their offences are if there's a functioning government. They're adults at the end of the day.

I feel deeply uncomfortable with how quickly people are willing to blame children for their own grooming, and dislike where it leads if we start saying 15 year old children can consent to their own grooming, relationships with older men, know what they're getting into if they are radicalised (in any area, religious, politics, criminality and so on).

But she didn't commit the crimes in the UK. She like all others should stand trail where the crimes have been committed. Or do you think that someone from the UK can go to other countries, kill, rape, torture people and then stand trial back in the UK?

In other countries 15 is classed is an adult. I'm not saying it's right that they are but it's fact.

Bet you anything they wouldn't be feeling the same way if they moved criminals next door to them!!!

In other countries 15 is classed is an adult. I'm not saying it's right that they are but it's fact
I know, but it isn't in our country.

15 is a minor here. A 15 year old is subject to safeguarding here, or should be.

We rightly take 15 year olds drug dealing with county lines as a criminal matters whilst also acknowledging that gangs of adults actively target children and groom them. We rightly say that adults grooming children for sexual exploitation is illegal. We rightly say 15 year olds can't consent to marriage. We say they can't have tattoos and can't do many other things until 18, but when it comes to a particular group of children suddenly all this vanishes and the children are adultified.

In a safeguarding training session I was in one of the topics was far right radicalisation and why we had a duty of care to report signs of radicalism in teenagers. Radicalisation and grooming of children is a problem and we rightly, in my opinion, think it's unacceptable for adults to groom and exploit children. The fact she was a child when this happened is probably why opinion is divided because I think that crucial fact makes a big difference to a lot of people, me included

Assorted agencies in our country let those children down and there should be some serious investigations into what needs to change to prevent something like this happening again.

Radicalisation and grooming of children is a problem and we rightly, in my opinion, think it's unacceptable for adults to groom and exploit children

I asked this last time there was a thread and as far as I know never received an answer. I haven't read all the thread, so apologies if this has been answered but who in the UK actually groomed her and her friends? because I've seen a lot of people saying 'oh, she was groomed' but not who by.

But again county lines are committed in the UK, if they went to another country and got caught they'd have to have a trial there.

So according to an earlier pp, if she wasn't currently appealing her loss of citizenship she would be tried in a Syrian court for war crimes. Have I got that right?

I obviously know nothing about the Syrian legal process and how it is affected by international law but why should her appeal against loss of citizenship stop her being tried for war crimes in Syria? This has already happened to her husband. Was he stripped of his Dutch citizenship and, if not, why were they able to try and convict him?

I would also like to ask those posters who have experience with Prevent and other anti-radicalisation bodies what they think could have been done to stop this happening to her and the other schoolgirls who joined ISIS. Is the view that she was radicalised online by non-UK elements or was it as a result of influences in the UK? I have seen a few references to an older girl who was also at her school and who is now apparently still with ISIS.

There are so many issues raised by this and I am struggling to form a view which is based on facts rather than emotion.

That’s because we are so terrified in the U.K. of calling anything out. All public sector staff including teachers have done the prevent training. Yet we are still scared to say anything in case it’s classed as racist. I bet the teachers knew exactly what was going on. It’s the same with arranged marriages, sending girls back home to marry, the abuse white girls get in Rotherham. We know it happens but we do nothing about it in reality. Why? In case we upset the local communities?