Anyone watched the shamina begum documentary on bbc 2 ?

[hellobethyname]

Just watching it now

I've changed my mind . She was a child , groomed , no idea what she was getting into .

I don't think we should demonise one child forever . There are much bigger threats out there that people don't even realise.

Agree you have explained it very well.

I have also read that U.K. prisons are quite a hive of activity for terrorist grooming. Do we really want to send her to a prison in the U.K. where she may meet other radicals/activists?

This is very true and agree that the school/teachers must have been aware, particularly if it's true that the girls were wearing Isis pin badges on their school blazers.

In my line of work I have to do prevent and safeguarding training and there does seem to be a real problem in people feeling comfortable with whistle blowing and reporting things.

Nobody, but nobody, has said "poor little girl, bring her back safe so that she can escape justice". There is, firstly, a real risk of a camp break-out. It has happened. It is better that people are where you can see them (and yes, rehabilitated if possible) rather than floating around somewhere.

There's a reason (in fact, many reasons) why war crimes could and should be tried in a neutral court - as in the case of the former Yugoslavia, f.i.

SB's parents, school, mosque... all failed in their duty of care. I don't see how anyone can deny this.

Is there any evidence that she tortured or killed, or actively facilitated the torture and killing of people? Factual evidence, not rumour and hearsay?

Some of you come across way too small-minded. It's actually quite vile.

I agree, we should let the Yazidis and Government of Syria decide what they want to do with someone who committed crimes in their country.

I didn't know about this documentary and it sounds interesting so thanks for the rec ! I'm especially interested as I was living in Turkey back when the whole thing hit the news.

Personally I find it hard to empathize with Shamima. I could believe that a girl could be deceived and somehow manage to glamorize the whole thing. But when she arrived there, she saw first hand the pain, torture and misery of it, and she still believed in it. She didn't try to help any of the others, any of the prisoners. She was even quoted as saying she "had a good time".

So I'm not sure I can believe fully the "she was groomed" excuse.

There was a boy who was groomed by his mother in law to kill his own father. So I know grooming can and does make people do awful things. However the boy's remorse in the documentary that was made about him was very raw and real and sincere. And also grooming usually involves a relationship (often abusive) with one specific person but my understanding is that Shamima was given to her husband (so she wasn't living with her groomer) yet still away from the groomer's influence she found it all perfectly fine.

Furthermore, whether or not she was groomed as a child is at this point irrelevant, the question is whether she believes in ISIS as an adult. The evidence so far suggests that she does, and only says anything to the contrary to get what she wants.

As for the baby it is tragic, and I do think the UK should have tried to repatriate it, however to be fair they didn't have much time to organize any transfer as the baby died very quickly. Also, what should they have done if Shamima refused to hand him over ? Obviously we'll never know whether she would have, but a reason they didn't try may have been that she would have tried to use the offer to negotiate her own return, which was not on the table.

In any case, the baby was also Dutch, wasn't he, since the dad was Dutch. Yet no one here suggests the Netherlands should have made any efforts to repatriate him.

Sorry but I can't feel bad about Shamima's fate. Criminals are one thing, terrorists quite another. However, I'll watch the documentary and we'll see if I change my mind !

In my line of work I have to do prevent and safeguarding training and there does seem to be a real problem in people feeling comfortable with whistle blowing and reporting things

In too many situations there's a problem reporting and whistleblowing.

The more I read about this case, the more questions I have about the agencies that should have been protecting the girls, and by extension UK citizens. It seems there were concerns when one of her good friends went to Syria, police didn't contact the parents of SB and her friends instead relying on a letter that ended up being seen by SB.

SB's friend who was already in Syria had suddenly become very into religion with significant changes to her outlook and approach to life in a western country. Then there's the suggestion that agents feeding information to western governments were involved and aware of the girls.

but again county lines are committed in the UK, if they went to another country and got caught they'd have to have a trial there
I know that is a UK crime, but my point is we can't say that children can be, and are, groomed for CSE/CCE, but then adultify a particular group of children and argue they knew exactly what they were doing, were complicit in their own grooming and then remove their citizenship on the grounds we can try to force another country (in this case Bangladesh) to take responsibility for them.

It's an illogical position to adopt if people accept it's wrong to for adults to groom children, marry children and have sex with children, if the second the victim of grooming doesn't look right it becomes 'oh she knew what she was doing when she married an older man'.
It's an illogical position to say we know predatory adults can, and do, groom children for criminal exploitation, but then when the victim is the wrong type of victim it's suddenly 'but they're 15, so we're they actually groomed, they don't respond how I think a child in that situation would respond so they deserve to lose their citizenship'.

SB was a British citizen, raised here and groomed here. Removing the citizenship of a child because the government want to argue that Bangladesh should take her and deal with her instead is a joke.

@LolaSmiles yes, I too have questions surrounding the agencies involved. SB was apparently messaging a woman (Aqsa Mohammed I believe she was called) who was spreading online propaganda and who the police were monitoring so they were aware that SB was in contact with this person of interest (who also went off to Syria before the 3 girls) and yet noone thought to notify the parents that their 14/15 year old child was befriending a suspected terrorist online.

The school sending letters home in book bags was a huge mistake and given there were 9 girls in total that they knew about, one of whom had already fled to Syria, you'd think there would have been some sort of emergency protocol in place, not sending home a letter with no follow up telephone calls or emails or meeting with the parents and/or police.

If SB committed actual terrorist acts rather than simply being a wife of a terrorist, which is still to be established, then she deserves to face the consequences of her actions but it seems to me that there were some massive failings here in the UK which have played a part in the SB story.

PrincessScarlett
That's what concerns me too. There's a lot of questions to be answered by the agencies here in the UK and the organisations around the girls.

I'm all for her being held accountable for her actions in a court of law, and on reflection I think the poster up thread who suggested an independent court might have a better idea than it being the UK courts. The due process also needs to consider that she was a child at the time of her grooming, trafficking, and child marriage.

We wouldn't say a white British child had the ability to consent to their grooming, marriage to a man in his mid 20s and subsequent sexual relationship, so we can't say a different child knew exactly what she was getting into. I don't buy the idea that the girls were clueless about life under Isis before they got there, but she was still a child and in the UK we accept that children are minors who deserve to be protected from grooming and have different decision-making capabilities to adults.

I don't think you can compare the two situations - they are entirely different.

Do you have sympathy for Thompson and Venables who tortured and murdered Jamie Bulger aged 10? Clearly they weren’t born that way.

Yes, I think they must have suffered extreme violence in their young lives to act that out upon a younger child.

Their actions were horrific. They were rightly held responsible. They still had a trial and were dealt with according to the principles of justice.

Feeling sympathy for Shamima doesn't mean that she shouldn't be held responsible for any laws broken. She should have a trial too. Everyone accused of a crime has a right to a trial.

Feeling sympathy for Shamima doesn't mean that she shouldn't be held responsible for any laws broken

If she were tried here in UK how would witnesses be found to give evidence in a UK court if Shamina committed her crimes in Syria?

Yes, I'd still say he shouldn't be detained indefinitely without trial. No one should. Such a person should be brought back to be tried and sentenced as appropriate.

I don't know, but they are trying "Jihadi John" and other members of ISIS on US soil, so it must be possible.

The US has repatriated all of their citizens from the camps and is trying them in the American court system for terrorism offences. So I have no reason to believe this couldn't be done for Shamima Begum in the UK.

Removing the citizenship of a child because the government want to argue that Bangladesh should take her and deal with her instead is a joke.

She wasn’t a child when her citizenship was stripped- she was 19yrs old- an adult with blood on her hands.

The government did not strip her of her British citizenship so that Bangladesh should “take her and deal with her.” It’s a complete joke that you’d even think that much less say it.

They did it lawfully per the 1981 Nationality Act because of U.K. anti-terror laws and to prevent her from returning to the U.K. after she’s served time in Syria. Begum wants to avoid trial and certain prison in Syria- so she’s fighting to be made an exception to the rule.

She wasn’t a child when her citizenship was stripped- she was 19yrs old- an adult with blood on her hands

Im not actually aware of her having any blood on hands except by proxy, by virtue of being part of ISIS. The more I read, listen and watch about her, the greater number of parallels I see with victims of trafficking and abuse.

I think she was a very selfish, very self absorbed teenager. Ignorant and not particularly bright. In earlier interviews it was clear people expected her to give the responses of a well-adjusted adult at times of enormous physical and mental stress, which she wasnt. She was in a war zone, without agency or autonomy,in the power of some of the most dangerous people in the world.

I suspect from the moment she got to Turkey she was in self-preservation mode. Im not aware of any evidence in the public domain that she ever took part in any of ISIS' activities and it's ignorant of adult politicians in their 50s and above to assume that as a self absorbed young teen in the 21stC she was exposed to the same news reports that older generations were. Information just doesn't work that way for many people these days.

She does at least, finally, seem to be accepting responsibility for her choices and expressing remorse and regret. Her apparent detachment to her family is disturbing and I don't know if its a self-protection mechanism or something else. In spite of her crime(s) and her guilt, I'm left with the uneasy feeling that she is a product of a failing state.

Who knows, she's possibly better off in the detention camp but I still think she should be brought to the UK for trial and sentencing. And I think there are many lessons to be learned for us as a society and for our govement, in her example.

The fact still remains she didn't commit the crimes in the UK therefore she shouldn't stand trial for them in the UK. The highest court in the UK stripped her UK status they don't do that on a whim. She deserves to stand trial where she committed the crimes. She admitted herself to the crimes and only wanted to leave years later. She is trying to manipulate her way back. I hope she pays for what she did in the country she did them.

I agree whole heartedly with this.

The bit that surprised me was that there were no stories of men grooming her. It seems her and her 2 friends were entirely influenced by a 4th female friend, clearly a child reeling from the death of her mother and looking for some meaning in life. There's no mention of male influence at all. And I'm baffled that the friend (who went to Syria on her own several months earlier) continued to tell the 3 girls how great it was. When it clearly wasn't.

Shamina is very eloquent but she does herself no favours by acting as if heads in bins were nothing to be dramatic about, and smirking a lot during the interview. She doesn't appear repentant (I'm not saying she isn't, but she doesn't appear so), and it's hard to warm to her.

Wrong thread @HermioneWeasley

But tbh if my scales started with an 11 I would want to be telling everyone too

@Sarahcoggles SB also was messaging a woman in Scotland who travelled to Syria and was being monitored by the UK police for terrorist links. But yes, there does seem to be a mainly female influence on the grooming of these girls. The first school girl to leave was reportedly groomed by two women from a local mosque but the mosque have denied any involvement whatsoever.

The documentary featured a woman who said all girls/women joining Isis were sent to a camp where they were brainwashed by religion and shown how to make suicide vest/weapon related tasks. It's possible the first girl still encouraged the three girls over (despite life not being good) because she had been trained to do that. Indeed SB herself as been accused of trying to recruit girls.

Once any of these girls are over there it appears to be very difficult to leave as evidenced by the phonecalls from the other girl who travelled with SB to her mum wanting to come home but she couldn't and that she was scared.

Which is why some posters say she wasn’t groomed.

@Twiglets1 thats embarrassing! 🙀

Let’s say she does come to the UK to stand trial. What are the outcomes. She’s found guilty and put in prison where she either grooms others and recruits them to terrorism or is rehabilitated. If the latter and she serves her time and is released, what then? A white extremist group will murder her. There is no happy ending for her in the UK, all her media attention has painted a huge target on her.
Better to follow international law and let her be tried where her crimes were committed.