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Telly addicts

Anyone watched the shamina begum documentary on bbc 2 ?

361 replies

hellobethyname · 07/02/2023 19:14

Just watching it now

I've changed my mind . She was a child , groomed , no idea what she was getting into .

I don't think we should demonise one child forever . There are much bigger threats out there that people don't even realise.

OP posts:
Yesthatismychildsigh · 08/02/2023 15:21

hellobethyname · Yesterday 19:45
Has anyone commenting watched it ?

I think a lot of people live really quite in the dark not knowing the people in their own communities who pose a much bigger threat .

(I work in an area that monitors people)

so your professional opinion is that because others are a bigger threat, the smaller fry aren’t anything to worry about? We often don’t know how big a threat someone/thing is until it’s too late.
scary.

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:21

@Milkandhoneybees why don’t you not donate to her legal team and have a warm glow inside that you sponsor terrorism.

Onnabugeisha · 08/02/2023 15:21

AG247 · 08/02/2023 15:01

I respectfully disagree and I believe you are being far too lenient in your analysis of what has happened. I also know a lot about grooming and my degree lent itself to a lot of studies on terrorism. I also hail from a country that has far more experience of terrorism than the U.K. has in its entire history. We have seen it all.

There is being groomed, through exploiting vulnerabilities and other aspects of a child’s mind yet developed, and then there are children like Shamima.

Ultimately, children from a very young age are brought up to understand the concept of right and wrong. She was not groomed to become a suicide bomber; or a physical terrorist which so often happens in grooming; she was influenced by local Imams initially, and then somebody on the internet to join an organisation which was widely broadcasted as violent and extreme. She initially sought them out online.

It is cold blooded and against human nature IMO to actually see the things ISIS were doing and still wish to join them. The kind of videos we all saw are absolutely stomach churning and most adults could not watch them. On that note, I would add I don’t think there’s any coming back for any child that is able to to watch this kind of thing and NOT feel upset or disgusted. It is an issue with them not an issue of grooming. If you look into the psychology of children who do not shy from death or violence you typically find them to behave similarly as adults.

The British media, as they do, sensationalised ISIS to such a degree that I don’t think anybody here DIDN’T know about what they were doing, and most of us unwillingly saw a lot more of what was happening than we wanted to.

Her parents, would have been very aware of what was going on in Iraq and Syria, similarly they, or her sister would have seen their daughter wearing ISIS memorabilia. Children throughout the school knew Shamima for trying to influence others to join ISIS. It was clearly common knowledge and parents in tight knit communities do talk. Are you seriously suggesting her parents didn’t know?

I don’t believe this is grooming, I believe she has grown up in an environment where it was NOT taboo to sympathise with aspects of what ISIS stood for, and this was a progression on from that. It is a serious problem in the U.K. and exists in pockets of the country on a very serious level. I believe everyone around her is also to blame for this (school, family etc)

I will not bore anyone with the ins and outs of terrorist recruitment, but typically vulnerabilities such as lack of money, lack of money for the family, past shames or hidden secrets are used to manipulate young children or adults into making decisions they will regret. In certain places money is given to the family of a ‘martyr’ for example, in exchange. Or maybe somebody has found to be a homosexual and this is used as ‘redemption.’ This was none of this at all. I think it goes much further than any of that.

So, for that reason, I think she is too far gone to be able to actually feel remorse for what she has done, aside from feeling sorry for herself. She is no different, in my eyes than any child growing up to become a murderer who presented signs from a young age (killing animals for example). A well documented phenomenon. There is something very clearly not right there.

👏👏👏👏 100% Agree.

Weallgottachangesometime · 08/02/2023 15:26

Can I ask a genuine question (not rhetorical)- How do we know she poses a risk? Is it purely based on the fact she traveled and joined/married into ISIS? Or is it thought she herself is a risk? For example has she made bombs or orchestrated attacks or gathered/shared information to inform attacks?

just wondering what the risk is if she comes back?

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:32

Weallgottachangesometime · 08/02/2023 15:26

Can I ask a genuine question (not rhetorical)- How do we know she poses a risk? Is it purely based on the fact she traveled and joined/married into ISIS? Or is it thought she herself is a risk? For example has she made bombs or orchestrated attacks or gathered/shared information to inform attacks?

just wondering what the risk is if she comes back?

She poses a risk to glorify and preach the extremist mantra of Islam is that not enough. Maybe ask one of the victims of the Manchester bombing there thoughts. I know one parent personally if you want there contact details. Idiots the lot of you defending her and wanting her back. Shame it wasn’t your child then you could ask yourself the same question

Onnabugeisha · 08/02/2023 15:34

@LolaSmiles
So all the things she did 15,16,17, she is not criminally liable for in your opinion, despite the fact that teens that age are tried as adults every day.

But what what the things she did at 18 & 19 before as she said in her own words the “good time” ended and “things got hard” so she decided to leave ISIS?

Things like put together and sew homicide bomber vests onto adults and teens? Things like be part of the secrete female police going around killing civilians in occupied ISIS territory? Beating and humiliating the Yazidi slave girls her husband kept and raped and who did all the household work?

She was a ‘working’ wife and mother who rose through the ranks of ISIS as an ADULT. In all her interviews there’s never a hint that she wanted to leave ISIS- until they’d pretty much lost the war they started. She’s said she has no regrets for joining ISIS. She’s said she agreed with the genocide and enslavement of the Yazidi. She’s agreed with the beheadings, and said it never bothered her.

What about the terror crimes she did as an adult then?

MarkWithaC · 08/02/2023 15:35

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:12

Well in a scale of 0-100 my sympathy is zero and yours isn’t which in my opinion is too much.

With regards to pregnancy coercion I don’t think it exists here. She had extremist religious beliefs that the men are 100% in charge. It’s the life she wanted and chose.

With regards to pregnancy coercion I don’t think it exists here

Oh, do you not?
...

MarkWithaC · 08/02/2023 15:38

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:21

@Milkandhoneybees why don’t you not donate to her legal team and have a warm glow inside that you sponsor terrorism.

Genuine question: how do you get from what that poster has said to 'sponsor terrorism'?

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:43

Milkandhoneybees · 08/02/2023 14:11

No, you are wrong.

Even The Guardian article, that YOU have sent, says this:

"British nationality law allows the home secretary to remove a person’s UK citizenship if doing so is deemed to be “conducive to the public good”. However, it is illegal to revoke a person’s nationality if doing so would leave them stateless."

Javid was aware that Shamima only had until she was 21 (she was 19 at the time, still a teen) to claim citizenship in Bangladesh, but had no way of claiming it, but still used this as a way of legally stripping her of her citizenship, which was effectively a legal loophole - something the Tories are great at - but that in real terms and ethically, is illegal.

The state minister of foreign affairs of Bangladesh, Shahriar Alam, said in a statement to the British media just days after Javid’s announcement that Begum was not a citizen of Bangladesh and would be denied entry to the country.

Again, from YOUR Guardian article:

"A two-day hearing in the case in November heard that Begum was still considered by MI5 as a national security risk because although she had travelled out as a minor, she had “aligned” with the terror group.

Lord Pannick QC, representing Begum, said she was unable to put her side of the case properly from al-Roj detention camp where she was being held. He told the court she would be at risk of physical harm if she spoke by mobile phone to her British lawyers."

Once again, the hands of the Supreme Court were tied; they acknowledged that Shamima had no way of having a fair trial whilst her life was under threat in a detainment camp, but they have no choice but to take MI5's word that she is still classed as a "risk," but MI5 do not need to provide any further reasoning or evidence, because again, their evidence of who is and isn't a threat cannot be disputed by the courts, amounting to another legal loophole, but in real terms, they knowingly deprived her of her right to a fair trial, which is illegal.

From the Human Rights Watch website:

"The Court ruled that [Shamima's] due process rights are indefinitely suspended until she can play “an effective part in her appeal without the public’s safety being compromised,” but gave no indication of when that might be and left the decision in the hands of the government. This leaves Begum stuck in a detention camp in northeast Syria where thousands are held without any legal basis, in conditions so dire they amount to inhumane treatment or even torture."

Essentially, Shamima is a pawn in the government's own agenda, and there the hands of the courts are tied.

"The UK Government should heed growing calls from security experts, UN officials, and human rights groups, and immediately repatriate Shamima and the other British women and children. To turn its back on them is not only a legal and moral aberration, but a long-term security risk. Leaving them in detention camps leaves them vulnerable to radicalization and the dire conditions can serve as a recruitment tool. If we have learnt anything from the last 20 years, it’s that our security is never served by undermining human rights." www.hrw.org/news/2021/03/02/uk-supreme-court-has-failed-shamima-begum

@MarkWithaC she campaigning about her human rights ffs. Who do you think pays the legal fees. Me the taxpayer

Why don’t you and your snowflakes take the burden off me. And by the way pm me your number and I will pass it on to Chloe’s mam

Onnabugeisha · 08/02/2023 15:44

MarkWithaC · 08/02/2023 15:35

With regards to pregnancy coercion I don’t think it exists here

Oh, do you not?
...

I dont believe there was pregnancy coercion as she said in her first interview:
”…I don't regret it because it's changed me as a person. It's made me stronger, tougher. I married my husband. I wouldn't have found someone like him back in the UK. I had my kids. I did have a good time there, it's just that at the end things got harder and I couldn't take it anymore. I had to leave.”

He’s Dutch but currently in prison in Syria after being tried for his ISIS crimes. Which is where Begum should be too- in a Syrian women’s prison.

Supersimkin2 · 08/02/2023 15:45

I don’t think Begum’s all there. ‘Something missing’ was the very strong message from the emotionally absent responses on the TV show and podcast.

She has no MH or ND issues - the problem’s different.

Could be a choice, could be a brain injury, could be personality.

Weallgottachangesometime · 08/02/2023 15:47

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:32

She poses a risk to glorify and preach the extremist mantra of Islam is that not enough. Maybe ask one of the victims of the Manchester bombing there thoughts. I know one parent personally if you want there contact details. Idiots the lot of you defending her and wanting her back. Shame it wasn’t your child then you could ask yourself the same question

I was asking a genuine question about what people felt the risk was. There’s no need to hype everything up and be rude. I genuinely wanted to know specifically what risks he poses. I wasn’t sure if there was evidence of her role in events/planning etc. obviously that does make a difference.

I highly doubt your friend would appreciate you using their horrific personal situation to score points on an online forum. But please do tell me their contact details, I’m sure they’d love to hear from a random stranger about their”friend” piggy backing on their traumatic event for clout.

MarkWithaC · 08/02/2023 15:47

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:43

@MarkWithaC she campaigning about her human rights ffs. Who do you think pays the legal fees. Me the taxpayer

Why don’t you and your snowflakes take the burden off me. And by the way pm me your number and I will pass it on to Chloe’s mam

I actually don't know what you're talking about any longer.
What I meant was why you seem to think a poster wants to 'sponsor terrorism'.
But never mind.
And I don't know why people are 'snowflakes' for expressing slightly nuanced opinions.
Or what you mean about Chloe's mam.
But again, never mind.

Weallgottachangesometime · 08/02/2023 15:49

Onnabugeisha · 08/02/2023 15:44

I dont believe there was pregnancy coercion as she said in her first interview:
”…I don't regret it because it's changed me as a person. It's made me stronger, tougher. I married my husband. I wouldn't have found someone like him back in the UK. I had my kids. I did have a good time there, it's just that at the end things got harder and I couldn't take it anymore. I had to leave.”

He’s Dutch but currently in prison in Syria after being tried for his ISIS crimes. Which is where Begum should be too- in a Syrian women’s prison.

How come she isn’t in prison in Syria?

sorry to be asker of multiple questions. Just seems like there is a lot of missing bits of information.

MarkWithaC · 08/02/2023 15:52

Onnabugeisha · 08/02/2023 15:44

I dont believe there was pregnancy coercion as she said in her first interview:
”…I don't regret it because it's changed me as a person. It's made me stronger, tougher. I married my husband. I wouldn't have found someone like him back in the UK. I had my kids. I did have a good time there, it's just that at the end things got harder and I couldn't take it anymore. I had to leave.”

He’s Dutch but currently in prison in Syria after being tried for his ISIS crimes. Which is where Begum should be too- in a Syrian women’s prison.

This is what I don't get. This idea that we should take everything she says as uncoerced, unaffected by her history or present trauma. People on here have tried to point out how long it can take and how hard it can be to undo the effects of grooming and radicalisation.
And if Begum has a problem of psychology, rather than or as well as of circumstance, as more than one poster has suggested, that doesn't mean either that she is speaking well-thought-out, rational thoughts or coming from a well-adjusted perspective.

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:52

@MarkWithaC it’s ok don’t worry it’s a very sensitive subject for me so I will refrain from further comment. Chloe was one of the girls who died in the Manchester arena attack.

@Weallgottachangesometime So would your thoughts be the same if one of your relatives died in the above attack. Just asking for a friend.

You can both have the last word but for me she should be hung, end of

007DoubleOSeven · 08/02/2023 15:52

Of course, women who've been through sexual abuse and trauma never frame it in their own minds as something that made them stronger or understandable in the circumstances...

MarkWithaC · 08/02/2023 15:55

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:52

@MarkWithaC it’s ok don’t worry it’s a very sensitive subject for me so I will refrain from further comment. Chloe was one of the girls who died in the Manchester arena attack.

@Weallgottachangesometime So would your thoughts be the same if one of your relatives died in the above attack. Just asking for a friend.

You can both have the last word but for me she should be hung, end of

I see. I think invoking 'Chloe's mam' is in that case the height of poor taste. To put it mildly.
While I can't speak for Weall, I will say that if someone used my personal tragedy online as you are using this person's you know, I would very much not appreciate it, for the same reason as above. It is ironic that you say this is 'a very sensitive subject' but do not seem to see the crassness and insensitivity of your comments.

LolaSmiles · 08/02/2023 15:57

@LolaSmiles so at what age should children be criminally responsible then.

A 15yo who was a victim of CSE can not be held to blame for raping a 12yo girl then? Or how about stabbing someone to death as they had witnessed dv at home?

Come on stop making excuses for her.
I'm not making excuses for her.

I'm saying she was a British citizen, a child, and groomed in the UK so we have a responsibility to bring her back to the UK and for her to go through the UK criminal justice system.

It's deeply problematic in my eyes to argue that children are responsible for their own grooming and start arguing that children (be it Shamima or any other child) know exactly what they're getting into, whether that's religious radicalisation, far right radicalisation, criminal exploitation or sexual exploitation.

In many areas of public life we acknowledge children are different from adults. They are minors and we have a safeguarding duty towards them. In many area we accept that children are not able to make full informed consent, but when it comes to SB people are very quick to adultify her and make arguments that have quite concerning consequences for our duty of care to children.

I don't want to live in a society where it's acceptable to argue if adults groom children, have sex with children, marry children, and lead children into criminal acts or sexual exploitation that the children are to blame for that because they know what they're getting into.

Weallgottachangesometime · 08/02/2023 15:57

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:52

@MarkWithaC it’s ok don’t worry it’s a very sensitive subject for me so I will refrain from further comment. Chloe was one of the girls who died in the Manchester arena attack.

@Weallgottachangesometime So would your thoughts be the same if one of your relatives died in the above attack. Just asking for a friend.

You can both have the last word but for me she should be hung, end of

I was asking questions to understand more about the situation.

of course if my loved one had been harmed I’d have a much stronger, emotional reaction. Like any other crime those involved closely are bound to feel more intensely about it. If we all reacted that way though about all crimes it would’ve a very chaotic situation.

obviously this is very personal for you. Therefore I understand why you feel like you do.

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:58

This reply has been deleted

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Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 15:58

That last comment was for @MarkWithaC

MarkWithaC · 08/02/2023 16:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

That's classy isn't it. That'll help the debate along. Nice one.

'terrorist sympathisers.' Grin Silly.

Andypandy799 · 08/02/2023 16:01

RIP CHLOE AND LIAM

Anyone watched the shamina begum documentary on bbc 2 ?
Twiglets1 · 08/02/2023 16:01

She’s a scary person to have no morals at the age of 15.
I wouldn’t want to see her return to the U.K. I believe that she could be a threat to national security as a target for extremists to look up to. At the moment she is a cautionary tale for any youngsters thinking about doing the same thing.
Let’s not give them the impression that rehabilitation after plotting extreme violence against the West is something it’s our responsibility to do because we’re that stupid & soft.