Caroline Flack: her life and death

[Rollergirl11]

Starting a thread in readiness for 9pm.

@Wantocrawlintoadarkcave

1. We either accept or we don't that BPD is a mental illness

1. We either accept or we don't that BPD makes it harder to resist impulsivity and angry behaviour, or it doesn't (the psychiatric and legal professions may disagree on this one)

1. We either accept or we don't that having a mental illness is not the fault of the sufferer

There seems to be a strange combination of contradictory beliefs on Mumsnet that poor mental health is not the fault of the sufferer and yet at the same time the sufferer is wholly responsible for any detrimental behaviour that results directly from their illness.

Nor is it acknowledged that different patients can be affected to different degrees by the same mental health disorder and individual patients can respond differently to the same treatment.

And few people understand (unless you have direct experience of someone in your family with a serious mental illness as I do) that the very same symptoms that affect some individuals with PDs, make it very difficult for them to seek out, accept, and stick consistently to treatment plans.

RIP Caroline

So in your version, the likely majority of male abusers suffering from personality disorders, depression (anger often being a symptom of this among men) or other mental health issues are similarly victims? Especially given that she never had a formal diagnosis named - do we therefore excuse Trump because many people feel he has narcissistic personality disorder? Martin Skreli because he has a girlfriend who loves him a lot, and he's probably a sociopath?

This is disrespectful to the majority of people suffering from mental health issues, including BPD, who are not abusers, and to victims of abuse.

I was also trapped by your thinking here. It was only once a counsellor stated that she would be unable to provide couples counselling because of his abusive behaviours, that I realised that unfortunately behaviours that are the result of a mental health condition can nevertheless result in abuse.

Her death is incredibly sad for her and her family. It is still very concerning to see physical abuse of a sleeping partner be swept under the carpet, under the guise of 'being kind'.

@OverTheRubicon well said.

If CF had been a man, I suspect some of the excuses responses we've seen on this thread would have been very different.

Overtherubicon What I am saying it's that it's a complex subject. I'm not advocating sweeping anything under the carpet or "being kind".

We don't know for sure if CF received a formal diagnosis or treatment. But they are not always easy to come by whether you are a man or a woman.

I'm saying that not everyone can overcome a serious mental health disorder And having a mental illness from childhood is not the sufferers fault. [ My family member suffered horribly as a result of hers. She really really tried to fight it, but it affected every single aspect of her life. And our lives too. But she honestly couldn't help a lot of her behaviour.]

Of course all violence is unacceptable.

And please let us not overlook that the person Caroline hurt most of all was herself.

[I'm bowing out of this thread now because I need to go to sleep and I don't want to engage in back or forth arguments on a thread about someone who has lost their life. ]

She didn't have BPD diagnosis though did she? From what I can make out, she never sought any sort of help. I don't think her family even mentioned BPD, just mental health issues.

She was able to control her behaviour as well .. she was a public figure and no one had a clue. Her closest friends didn't seem to know.

You're right , user , I also said upthread that her mother and sister hadn't mentioned counselling or other help . Obviously something was wrong but BPD is an iternet diagnosis !

I'm guessing that her father and older brother and sister didn't want to be involved in the documentary but thought it was odd that only her mother and twin sister went to see the memorial bench.

Does anyone see any positivity coming out of the programme?

I think it's going to bring up more hate towards her.

I think the documentary coveted 3 separate issues:

The family grieving.
Mental Health.
Domestic Violence

I felt sorry for her friends (her family seemed to understand ) but they didn't seem to see how she partly brought the police involvement on herself.

I hadn't followed the story before in the news and watching the show actually made me feel more negatively towards her which I don't think was the point.

Does anyone see any positivity coming out of the programme?

I think it raised far more questions than it answered, which was a big part of my problem with it. Why talk about 'mental health problems' in such vague terms? If they were going to go there, why not say 'She had diagnosed clinical depression' or 'She had bipolar disorder'. By obfuscating it came across as an excuse, rather than an explanation.

As for who contributed - Dermot whatsiface and his wife - why? He was sitting there telling us how wonderful she was and then we see him smirking that he got his X Factor job back when she was fired. And why no mention of the rest of her family? I didn't even know she had another brother and sister, or that her dad was still around - the documentary seemed to suggest it was just her, her mum and her twin sister - yet she came from a family of two parents and four DC?The whole thing was just really odd. I think C4 screwed up by making this programme. Not appropriate, not illuminating, just a pointless 'tribute' that would never have seen the light of day if CF had been a man.

@RevolvingPivot

Does anyone see any positivity coming out of the programme?

I think it's going to bring up more hate towards her.

I think the documentary coveted 3 separate issues:

The family grieving.
Mental Health.
Domestic Violence

I felt sorry for her friends (her family seemed to understand ) but they didn't seem to see how she partly brought the police involvement on herself.

I hadn't followed the story before in the news and watching the show actually made me feel more negatively towards her which I don't think was the point.

I would hope that maybe someone watching who knew someone who was self harming/ attempting suicide/ suspected BPD would maybe push them towards getting help, instead of letting the person sweep it under the carpet to be ignored and everyone pretending that nothing was wrong.

To me there was almost an air of inevitability of what happened - she had shown many times before she could not cope with break ups or rejection. It was only a matter of time before one of her attempts was successful?

Maybe someone watching would recognise such traits in themselves and get help? Before they themselves reached an explosive point.

That really would be the only positive point I could take from the programme.

Ah I didn't know she had other family. You're spot on with everything there. I think it was a mistake.

I thought the narrator from love island would be on as weren't they a couple once plus they guy from the apprentice.

It's so sad. Does anyone know whether she had taken / drank anything when she overdosed?

It's awful to think that had she not possibly been under the influence and made a drunken decision she would be here.

Iain Stirling and Caroline Flack were never a couple, just very good friends. Iain is in a relationship with Laura Whitmore who is another very good friend of Caroline’s.

I think I read that the documentary producers were actually having talks with Caroline about making the program. And then they thought it fitting to make it a tribute to her after she died.

I do agree with others that the program wasn’t particularly illuminating and seemed to throw up more questions than it answered. It was so vague that we really don’t know if Caroline sought professional help for her mental health. And if not, why didn’t she? It was clear to everyone around her from a young age that things weren’t right.

Yes I knew he was with Laura now

her friend was staying with her on the day she died went to the shop came back and the door was locked couldnt get in and phoned her dad who came round and found her-seemed they did know she was at risk

Don’t forget the marching powder they were all fond of in her friendship group. Did they ever release her blood results of the autopsy. The group of women that she was with leading up to her death where they on the show?

@EachandEveryone

Don’t forget the marching powder they were all fond of in her friendship group. Did they ever release her blood results of the autopsy. The group of women that she was with leading up to her death where they on the show?

There were two women who seemed to be non-celeb friends who contributed (one was called Chantelle, don't know the other one), then there was her manager (Anna Burns?) and a few fellow TV presenters - Natalie Pinkham, Dermot and his wife Dee, Olly Murs ... can't remember who else! The whole thing was a whitewash.

What is marching powder

Cocaine

Gabs that account changed during the inquest.

Caroline had messaged her friends (Mollie Grosberg and Lou Teasdale) the evening before she died to say that she was taking an overdose. They went to the house, called 999, paramedics attended and wanted to take her to hospital but Caroline refused to go with them. Paramedics advised friends to stay and watch her.

The next morning at 10.30am she made the friends leave after a row - she was angry that they had called 999.

Her body wasn't found until later that day (Jody Flack tried to gain entry to the property and couldn't, Stephen Teasdale, Lou's father, got a key from the landlady and they went in and found her.) The attending paramedic said it was clear she had been dead for a number of hours by this stage.

These two friends were not in the documentary.

I didnt watch the programme but I was an alcoholic with serious mental health problems for many years. During those years, I was dreadfully abusive, mentally and physically, to partners I had, including my current husband. I knew what I was doing in one way and take responsibility for it as well.

It's pure pain that makes unwell people lash out I believe.

I hadn't followed the story before in the news and watching the show actually made me feel more negatively towards her which I don't think was the point.

Me too. I think she was a complex person and possibly quite manipulative from a young age. The footage of the clearly put on crying for example, and her mum saying she cried often.

I also didn’t like the minimising from her friends, Lewis had a “cut on his head” but she was “covered in blood”

I've never heard that account before PLAY but it makes more sense. I always wondered why would Lou Teasdale leave her alone to run to the shops.

I think the people in the programme maybe weren't her closest to her when she died. Those people clearly aren't talking as they know Caroline was complex and troubled and it won't play out well on a gushing tribute show.

I'm very sorry for her mum and sister but I think they were misled by the film makers. The whole thing came across like a sorry tale of fame gone wrong rather than a woman being failed by society or whatever point they were trying to make. I just feel like she had never dealt with her issues and all the hangers on and party crowd around her didn't want to know about this side of her.

I'm sympathetic to the family as I know you can't make people seek help.

Not comfortable with people here diagnosing her or imagining what might have happened that night with Lewis.

Should have guessed

@RedcurrantPuff "A small cut" I think someone said.

@GabsAlot

im sorry for her family but why is it still ok to forget what she did to her boyfriend and alledegy other boyfriends

I was thinking this, the constant minimising of what she did and his injuries annoyed me. If that had been a man who assaulted a woman then the portrayal would have been extremely different. However having said that I found it very moving and sad for her family and friends. No one should feel that suicide is their only way out of a situation.

Talking about marching powder, the other suicides related to LI both were coming down from a mix of cocaine and alcohol.

Lots of people with severe mental health problems ostensibly self-medicate until it turns on them or they die.

It's just so complex and so very very sad.