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Telly addicts

Caroline Flack: her life and death

210 replies

Rollergirl11 · 17/03/2021 20:35

Starting a thread in readiness for 9pm.

OP posts:
dayswithaY · 18/03/2021 15:01

I felt uncomfortable with Dermot talking so compassionately about her. When they showed the clip of Graham Norton making jokes about Caroline and Dermot coming back to the X Factor, he sat in the audience preening and punching the air. Not a good look.

I also found the whole thing one sided. Her friends kept saying "She didn't do anything wrong!" about the domestic abuse. Well, unless you were there you really can't say that. You might love your friend but there may have been a side to her that is hard to accept. I'm sure she was very different with her boyfriends than with her adoring friends.

Sparklingbrook · 18/03/2021 15:10

@dayswithaY

I felt uncomfortable with Dermot talking so compassionately about her. When they showed the clip of Graham Norton making jokes about Caroline and Dermot coming back to the X Factor, he sat in the audience preening and punching the air. Not a good look.

I also found the whole thing one sided. Her friends kept saying "She didn't do anything wrong!" about the domestic abuse. Well, unless you were there you really can't say that. You might love your friend but there may have been a side to her that is hard to accept. I'm sure she was very different with her boyfriends than with her adoring friends.

In the context of this programme it looks awful on Dermot but at the time I think the air punch was because he was presenting X factor again rather than any connection to CF.
user1471543094 · 18/03/2021 15:29

@dayswithaY

I felt uncomfortable with Dermot talking so compassionately about her. When they showed the clip of Graham Norton making jokes about Caroline and Dermot coming back to the X Factor, he sat in the audience preening and punching the air. Not a good look.

I also found the whole thing one sided. Her friends kept saying "She didn't do anything wrong!" about the domestic abuse. Well, unless you were there you really can't say that. You might love your friend but there may have been a side to her that is hard to accept. I'm sure she was very different with her boyfriends than with her adoring friends.

Yes her friendships seemed very strong and she seemed like a great friend. It seemed to be her relationships with men that she really struggled to control her emotions and reactions.
Tullyjune · 18/03/2021 15:33

Lorraine looks bad in hindsight but she had no clue how things would pan out or how depressed CF was.

This was uncomfortable viewing. Excusing her behaviour because she was vilified by the press and very troubled. It’s sad that it ended how it did but it doesn’t take away the fact that she was charged with abuse by beating.

It harms women more than men. Most DV victims are women and most abusers are men. This program handed abusive men a stick to beat women with. A pass, a future “well Caroline Flack....”

It was poorly judged. Especially in the current climate where misogynists are looking for any way to excuse themselves and blame women.

There needs to be a separate discussion about the treatment of women by the press.

PandemicAtTheDisco · 18/03/2021 15:38

It's shades of grey.

I find it very poor television when only one side is published and the darker aspects minimised or ignored.

I don't think it does any good when people are viewed as not having faults after they die.

RevolvingPivot · 18/03/2021 15:42

In a clip she said she didn't hurt anyone only herself.

Either she won't admit it or he lied.

Wantocrawlintoadarkcave · 18/03/2021 15:49

Violence, whoever is the perpetrator, is abhorrent. However, there are some MH conditions that do exacerbate abandonment issues, impulsivity, instability and emotional disregulation. People never like to discuss it, but I think if you talk to any psychiatric consultant they would say that certain aspects of certain personality disorders may in fact make it more likely that sufferers may be prone to violence in certain situations. Remember that CF was also violent towards herself on the night of the incident and then very sadly committed the ultimate act of violence towards herself later on. It's not a comfortable thing to acknowledge but those saying "mental health" is never an excuse - or never a contributory factor - aren't entirely correct. The question of degree of responsibility presumably relates to whether the patient consistently pursues and accepts treatment , if diagnosis and treatment is available to them of course. And some patients respond better to treatment than others.

Wolfiefan · 18/03/2021 15:49

@RevolvingPivot I got the impression that she was talking about the blood at the scene.

PLAYJAJADINGDONG · 18/03/2021 15:50

Two things stood out to me from this doc:

  1. It really sounds like she had Borderline Personality Disorder.
  1. I'm not convinced she did seem like that good of a friend user. I've read a lot of accounts from her friends and they all describe her as a life and soul of the party, flirtatious, party type who had lots of superficial friendships but it sounds like very few people really knew her, warts and all. She pushed her friends away when she was really struggling and fell out with them for calling paramedics the night before she died.

I suspect her boyfriends may have seen more of the real Caroline than her friends did and I think the real Caroline was a very troubled and quite dysfunctional person.

RevolvingPivot · 18/03/2021 15:55

Do we think he really was in fear for his life? Do you think he knew what it would do to her if the police found out (not as in kill herself but ruin her career). I think he regretted it but who knows what was going through his head. Maybe he really was scared. He looked a lot bigger than her though. Not saying it's right.

Rollergirl11 · 18/03/2021 16:03

I do think that the CPS were particularly heavy-handed in the way that they dealt with the case. The no contact condition on her bail was unnecessary in my opinion and almost certainly a contributing factor to Caroline taking her life. They are usually there to protect vulnerable victims in coercively controlling abusive relationships, not situational couple violence cases, which is what this was. Did Lewis Burton need protecting from Caroline after the event?

OP posts:
SplendidSuns1000 · 18/03/2021 16:04

@OverTheRubicon I agree.

Her death was tragic but her actions (whether alleged or not) were horrific. There will never be a fair trial and it seems odd that so many think her life can be seen with rose-tinted glasses just because she's dead. So many are using her poor mental health as a reason for her alleged abuse and that's so harmful.

PandemicAtTheDisco · 18/03/2021 16:10

Males assaulted by women have a history of being ridiculed and not taken seriously.

slashlover · 18/03/2021 16:19

@PandemicAtTheDisco

Males assaulted by women have a history of being ridiculed and not taken seriously.
Like this?

Do we think he really was in fear for his life? Do you think he knew what it would do to her if the police found out (not as in kill herself but ruin her career). I think he regretted it but who knows what was going through his head. Maybe he really was scared. He looked a lot bigger than her though. Not saying it's right.

He's bigger than her so can't be a victim.

user1471543094 · 18/03/2021 16:19

@Rollergirl11

I do think that the CPS were particularly heavy-handed in the way that they dealt with the case. The no contact condition on her bail was unnecessary in my opinion and almost certainly a contributing factor to Caroline taking her life. They are usually there to protect vulnerable victims in coercively controlling abusive relationships, not situational couple violence cases, which is what this was. Did Lewis Burton need protecting from Caroline after the event?
I do think that she was used as an example in some ways. I think the CPS/police did everything that they think they should have done in order to show the public that violence against men would be taken as as seriously as violence against women.
TurquoiseLemur · 18/03/2021 16:35

@Wantocrawlintoadarkcave

Violence, whoever is the perpetrator, is abhorrent. However, there are some MH conditions that do exacerbate abandonment issues, impulsivity, instability and emotional disregulation. People never like to discuss it, but I think if you talk to any psychiatric consultant they would say that certain aspects of certain personality disorders may in fact make it more likely that sufferers may be prone to violence in certain situations. Remember that CF was also violent towards herself on the night of the incident and then very sadly committed the ultimate act of violence towards herself later on. It's not a comfortable thing to acknowledge but those saying "mental health" is never an excuse - or never a contributory factor - aren't entirely correct. The question of degree of responsibility presumably relates to whether the patient consistently pursues and accepts treatment , if diagnosis and treatment is available to them of course. And some patients respond better to treatment than others.
It's true that some personality disorders make violence more likely. Such disorders CAN be a contributory factor. But "personalty disorder" has only very, very rarely been accepted as a defence in a court of law, nor do I think it should be: personality-disordered people do have the ability to make choices. (Unlike, for example, someone in a severe acute psychotic episode who has lost connection to reality. That's where the defence "diminished responsibility" is usually offered and sometimes accepted.)

The way Caroline Flack has been made into a tragic figure by the media (inc the makers of this programme) appals me. Yes, she was chronically distressed. Yes, she found break-ups very painful. But she attacked her partner, too right she was charged with a crime! To repeatedly leave this detail out of programmes/articles about her, or to mention it only in passing and in the most euphemistic terms, minimises what was happening.

I know her partner later wanted the case dropped but really, that is a common scenario in DV: the injured party is genuinely anxious about the violence against them escalating if the case proceeds. They want to forget the whole thing ever happened, to push it under the carpet. It's a form of denial that doesn't help the abused partner and nor, in the long term, does it do anything to challenge the abuser's behaviour.

Domestic abuse and domestic violence blights lives. Yes, some domestic abusers go on to kill themselves but let's not forget who the real victims are.

theageof · 18/03/2021 16:42

I don't think it does any good when people are viewed as not having faults after they die

This is the way for most celebrities. Jade Goody being a good example of this

RickiTarr · 18/03/2021 16:45

She obviously had an extreme reaction to rejection of any kind.

Yes. I want to watch this but if it’s about Borderline personality disorder I’m going to have to gird myself first. (Due to experiences with someone I know.)

Can anyone say whether it is?

RickiTarr · 18/03/2021 16:46

@PLAYJAJADINGDONG

Two things stood out to me from this doc:
  1. It really sounds like she had Borderline Personality Disorder.
  1. I'm not convinced she did seem like that good of a friend user. I've read a lot of accounts from her friends and they all describe her as a life and soul of the party, flirtatious, party type who had lots of superficial friendships but it sounds like very few people really knew her, warts and all. She pushed her friends away when she was really struggling and fell out with them for calling paramedics the night before she died.

I suspect her boyfriends may have seen more of the real Caroline than her friends did and I think the real Caroline was a very troubled and quite dysfunctional person.

Should have read on before I posted. I see the thread is going that way.
Brieminewine · 18/03/2021 16:53

I think it’s a bit distasteful for posters to comment negatively on a program made to celebrate her life and discuss her issues.

She was obviously very loved by family and friends but struggled since childhood with her mental health. Personally I think it’s right Lewis wasn’t featured, he did text another woman and did take photos of the scene and send them around, why would the family want him involved in her tribute. Her ex fiancé Andrew Brady who was discussed is on a crusade against the media now in her name, and he admits they were both as firey as each other but he was manipulated by the press.

Regardless of the ins and outs of her love life, of which the details we will never be privy to, there are always two sides to a story and she is no longer here to tell hers. Her suicide devastated friends, family and many of the public who didn’t know her and that speaks volumes.

RIP Carrie Flowers

MercyBooth · 18/03/2021 16:55

For balance

THREAD

twitter.com/salihughes/status/1372493073276674048?s=20

Rollergirl11 · 18/03/2021 16:55

@RickiTarr

She obviously had an extreme reaction to rejection of any kind.

Yes. I want to watch this but if it’s about Borderline personality disorder I’m going to have to gird myself first. (Due to experiences with someone I know.)

Can anyone say whether it is?

No specific condition was discussed in the program, just that she suffered with poor mental health. In fact it’s not clear whether any kind of diagnosis or medical help was ever sought for Caroline.
OP posts:
Wantocrawlintoadarkcave · 18/03/2021 16:56

Point taken about people with personality disorders being capable of making choices and PDs rarely being accepted as a defence in court TurquoiseLemur .

I think saying that CF "found break-ups very painful" is a huge understatement though. Her mother intimated as much and although CF's specific mh condition is not known to us, many sufferers of BPD find infidelity and any sort of abandonment a hundred times more difficult to cope with than someone who is mentally healthy.

SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 18/03/2021 17:21

mercy

Interesting. I was told to move on twice. Once when battered so badly my face isn’t really the one I started off with.

Once by my employer when bullied for years by a colleague (false allegations of trying to cause serious harm to that individual and others amongst other equally damaging things)

Move on? Aye right.

Funny how women are told that when people choose to protect the man.

As for Caroline? We don’t have her side of this sadly.

And for those who say her health isn’t an excuse? Well no. No it isn’t. Nor should it ever be.

But it is one trotted out by men to cover up their violence and damaging acts to women often.

Both times in my case.

And they walked away laughing.

PLAYJAJADINGDONG · 18/03/2021 17:29

TurquoiseLemur - You're absolutely right and I'd like to clarify that me saying that it looks like CF had BPD is in NO WAY me trying to excuse her actions. It just leapt out at me while watching the show, the way people describe her behaviours and feelings is like a BPD bingo card.

Personality disorders are something you have to take ownership of and manage by actively seeking help. It's not just a diagnosis that makes you exempt from responsibility for your actions.

I wonder if she ever pursued any talking therapies or if she ever even considered the possibility that she had a personality disorder.

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