BBC 2 The Disappearance of Margaret Fleming

[informedisgood]

Anyone else watching? Thank goodness her "careres" were finally exposed.

[SchadenfreudePersonified]

I am more shocked that she was off radar for all those years and nobody noticed. I am glad there’s going to be an Inquiry into her case

Vulnerable adults need safeguarding,

I agree - even in the (highly unlikely) situation that the DSS criteria changed back to "this person will never be capable of work", then they should insist on at least an annual appointment to ensure that there aren't any medical conditions which are being missed.

[theflushedzebra]

We haven't talked about the stepmother-to-be who seemed so fond of Margaret - and seemed a very nice woman.

The two carers told her that Margaret didn't want to see her anymore - which she said deeply upset her, and her guilt for not fighting this is palpable. But I guess she took a step back - respecting Margaret's fathers wishes, and what she was told were Margaret's wishes. But it seems that the carers worked to isolate Margaret from other people who cared for her almost immediately.

But I wonder why the father didn't ask his then wife-to-be to be carer? She seemed much more suitable. Was the father's death too sudden - they really didn't go into detail about the father's death - just that he nominated these two friends as carers, and they utterly failed Margaret.

The few photos featuring Margaret were haunting. She looked haunted.

Watching this has had a profound affect on me - I'm relieved there was eventually some (belated) justice for Margaret .

[SchadenfreudePersonified]

I thought the not-quite-stepmother was a bit {meh} myself - not a dreadful person, but one who was relieved not to have the responsibility of Margaret - who must have been hard work - a woman with a child's mind in many ways.

I agree that in the very few pictures there were of Margaret she looked like a lost soul.

Poor, poor girl. I think that she suffered terribly and was frightened and disoriented. Who knows what the Twins of Evil told her about father and his wishes. She must have been totally lost and afraid. I can't imagine what must have gone through her nmind, buttering in mind that she was apparently a big and very strong girl, I think that her "carers" must have use a lot of physical oppression to control her (I know - this is speculation, I am projecting/ fantasising etc - I am aware that I - and no-one else - knows what happened).

I think that Eddie physically brutalist her - terrified her - perhaps even raped her, who knows? - and that she was terrified of him. I thin they kept her short of food (based on a witness's evidence that Avril shopped for the "two of them") and that she wasn't allowed any autonomy..

I think her last months/ years were unspeakably lonely and filled with fear.

My heart aches for her.

But I don't hold her mother/ almost-stepmother/ neighbours to blame - if anyone, social services or the GP should be held to account, but even then, when you think of the workload of these professionals, how can w really blame them when someone slips through the net?

[ParkheadParadise]

Yes, the Step-mum was really upset when the verdict was returned.
That house gave me the boak.

[ParkheadParadise]

I think that Eddie physically brutalist her - terrified her perhaps even raped her, who knows?

That's my thoughts too

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

The stepmother-to-be was presumably not in Margaret's life for very long. I can understand that when she was told that Margaret didn't want to see her any more she accepted it, with or without relief.

What I can't understand is the rest of her family. The bare facts appear to be:

Mum and Dad marry. Margaret is born 7 or 8 years later and is the only child of the marriage. Margaret proves to have learning disabilities.

Mum and Dad split up when Margaret is 12 or 13. Dad takes her to live with him and his parents.

Dad is set to marry again, but unexpectedly falls ill and only lives for a few weeks. In the confusion of his death, he makes an arrangement with friends that Margaret can go and live with them. However, at first she goes to live with her mother. This doesn't work out well.

Mother didn't cope, tried and failed to get help from social services, took up offer of respite care from Dad's friends. However, once Margaret was ensconced there the 'friends' clearly decided she was going nowhere.

Now, this is where things take a turn I can't understand. Why did Margaret's mother accept it when told that Margaret no longer wanted to see her? Why didn't she keep pressing for information about her daughter? Why did the rest of the extended family not do the same?

Maybe I'm being naive but I can't imagine having a child as vulnerable as Margaret and just washing my hands of her in this way.

[WaxOnFeckOff]

As far as I understand, Margaret's mother did attempt to bring her back, she had a fight with Eddie (apparently unwitnessed by Margaret) and then Margaret was asked whether she wanted to go with her mother and said No. Presumably this was quite early on and maybe at that point she was being treated well or maybe she was already under the threat from Eddie. Margaret's mother then received a letter, supposed to be from Margaret saying she wanted nothing to do with her. The mother would be less knowledgeable about what Margaret was capable off presumably given that she had spent the last years in her fathers care. She reported that she found Margaret violent and struggled to cope, she may have thought that she was happy and didn't want anything to do with her, she might have been relieved and obviously didn't share the greed of the potential income that came with being a carer for her daughter.

[ClaudiaNaughton]

I thought the barrister’s wig was either new for the filming or belonged to someone else. The bitten nails were awful and the judge seemed to have his mouth hanging open a lot of the time.(Not surprising maybe).
I wondered what the £182,000 had been spent on apart from their jaunt to Regent Palace hotel.
I imagine the neighbours would know nothing of Margaret and would keep a wide berth from Eddie and Avril . Wonder if that house has been demolished.

[Aquestionforyouall]

@ClaudiaNaughton the house is still there or was recently any way. Derelict.

Just finished watching and thought McSporran was fantastic and really cared about getting justice for Margaret.

The two defence lawyers were terrible and their play acting was frustrating.

The teacher was fantastic. I wanted to hug her. I think in that position it would be so easy to just say ‘you could be right’ to the defence lawyer but she really stood up for what she believed in.

Goes without saying that Jones and Cairney were vile. I felt that the letters ‘from London’ showed that they thought they’d need to prove she was alive a lot earlier than they did. I don’t think they expected to get away with it as long as they did.

[LoisWilkersonsLastNerve]

I thought it was well made and so chilling. Poor Margaret. I read about the trial at the time. The attitude of that horrible couple really upset me. They didn't give a shit about her

[ToEarlyForDecorations]

I wonder if the so called carers had a criminal past.

[Inappropriatefemale]

I would put money on it that Eddie has a criminal past, probably nothing serious but something, with Avril then I don’t think so.

I didn’t like the defence lawyers either, tbh as much as it’s their job to defend people then I have a hard time with why lawyers try to get people off when it’s obvious as hell that they’re guilty, it’s their job I know but there’s something immoral about trying to get someone off just for the sake of ‘winning’ when it’s glaringly obvious that their client is a bad person.

[TitsInAbsentia]

Just watched both episodes, what a tragic tale. I almost hope she had just run away but it doesn't really sound like she had the capacity to. Cairney is a vile man and I hope he rots, along with Avril - should could have finally spoken out about it, I mean it's not like Cairney could have silenced her in court. I want to know more about the pair of them but there's very little out there on their backstory.

Let's hope that this case brings about some kind of reform so that history never repeats.

[purpleme12]

I've just started watching it. About 20 mins in it says that police checked CCTV in one direction but not the other when she was a missing person. I know there were told she went one way but surely they should check the other way too??

[milliefiori]

I didn't get the impression that Avril was just a passive bystander to Eddie's violence. There was something really malign about her. Dead behind the eyes. She really gave me the creeps. I felt so sorry for the sweet woman who said they had been best friends, or so she believed. I wondered how she had got so lonely that she relied on Avril for company.

[Inappropriatefemale]

What I didn’t understand about that nice woman that was ‘friends’ with Avril was why she didn’t know if Avril and Eddie were in a relationship, how the hell could you be friends with someone and not know this? Why wouldn’t you ask? That would be something I would have no issue with asking and I was confused, not it matters really but it was weird.

[MissEliza]

This programme has had my whole family hooked, I'm so sad for Margaret I can't cry if that makes sense. I was so impressed with her teacher who stood her ground that she couldn't have written that letter

[Wingedharpy]

Avril looked, to me, as if she was medicated up to the eyeballs.
She clearly, wasn't always like that as there were photos of her, when younger, looking fairly bright and happy.
Very sad all round for poor Margaret.
Like a PP, I felt she was probably in the sea given that it was just at the bottom of their garden.
Defence lawyer needed a cotton lining in his wig as it was making his head itch.
I assume that defence lawyers have to defend to the best of their ability, so that bad folk don't get their sentences reduced/revoked on appeal, regardless of their own personal opinions.

[user5656]

Just watched this last night. Very sad.
I think they (especially Cairney) are guilty as hell. I think they probably disposed of her body in the loch.
Didn't they say at one point that Cairney had had a diving school? He could have had access to a boat.
Also thought the teacher was excellent :
The lawyer, talking to her about the letters, said there are 2 options -
1- she wrote them herself
2 - someone helped her to write them
And the teacher added, yes and there is a third option - she had nothing to do with them! Touché
I hope Avril tells the truth one day, maybe once Cairney is dead.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Eddie had been a diver, apparently. That to me would suggest that he probably knew something about boats and had the contacts to borrow one, if he didn't have one already.

I was wondering about the house. It presumably belongs to them, and given his age any mortgage is likely to have been paid off long ago. So I don't suppose anybody can do anything about the house while they're in prison, until they're both dead. If it were overrun with vermin, maybe Environmental Health could step in. You'd hope so, for the sake of the neighbours.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Cross post! Just one point, it's not a loch. It's the Firth of Clyde, which is an inlet of the Irish Sea, salt water and tidal.

[Inappropriatefemale]

Yeah I forgot he was a diver! I think it’s safe to say that Margaret was dumped there but police won’t spend money on searching it as there is no proof that she’s there.

Did anyone come forward to say Eddie had rented a boat out?

[Aquestionforyouall]

We said that too about them only checking the CCTV one way.

Also the timing of them checking CCTV. They seemed to only check around the time the police got involved.

[Inappropriatefemale]

Apparently they would have seen her themselves if she had went in the direction that those 2 said she did, I’m pretty sure the police said this in the stand.

[Aquestionforyouall]

Yea she did but they seemed to be working on the possibility that she only left THAT DAY. It seemed strange to me that they didn’t look at earlier CCTV. Obviously they couldn’t have gone right back to 1999 though!