BBC 2 The Disappearance of Margaret Fleming

[informedisgood]

Anyone else watching? Thank goodness her "careres" were finally exposed.

[Chihaha]

Agreed

[SchadenfreudePersonified]

That's what I thought informed.

She was as rough as a badger's arse, and in love with the drama.

[SchadenfreudePersonified]

Sorry - not informed

I was responding to Aquestion - apologies.

[theflushedzebra]

Oh I didn't didn't get that impression at all! I thought she seemed genuinely emotional, both when talking about the carers before the verdict, and when the verdict was read in court.

[Toddlerteaplease]

If she really cared, and had concerns about the carers why on Earth didn't she speak up?

[theflushedzebra]

She was told by the the carers that Margaret didn't want to see her. Whether she believed it, was relieved by it, or both - who knows. But I doubt she thought they'd kill her. But I don't know her - so I don't know - but I thought she came across genuinely distraught.

Sounds like she just got on with her life after the death of the man she was going to marry - until the missing person stuff hit the news.

She did say she 'beats herself up' about it. It's just a devastating story of carers who isolated Margaret, possibly abused her horrifically, and then murdered her.

[FredaFrogspawn]

No one cared enough to find out if she was ok. I mean, as a mum, wouldn’t you call the police again every year or so of being sent away from the door?

And yes - I do wonder how many highly vulnerable adults are murdered or kept as slaves out of the system with no one caring where they are?

It was a very sad story.

I thought the fireman’s testimony was weak - if he really thought it was human flesh burning, he should have said something then.

I wondered if the cadaver dogs smelt traces of where she had been buried in 1999, perhaps wrapped in something - but then dug up after 6 years and the body then burnt when the bonfire was seen in 2006.

[Verily1]

The £180000 was over so many years that it was ‘only’ £216 per week- basically what they lived off day to day it seems.

I’m sure if there was evidence of a lavish lifestyle- holidays, cars, jewellery, home improvements (!!) it would have been presented in court/ made public.

Neither of them were working during those years so I imagine it went on basics- food, clothes, transport, bills.

Avril presents to me like a very traumatised person. Hopefully when EC dies she will tell the whole truth of what happened.

My theory is EC murdered her or maybe killed her through neglect, or an outside chance an accident then hatched a plan to cover it up with him using his diving skills to hide her body somewhere. Given the dynamic of their relationship it seems odd that Margaret’s money was going to Avril- that seems like him covering his tracks so he could blame her and he held that over her. It gave him the power. In the interview it was clear he talked for Avril. She didn’t look to me like she had much capacity, possibly even enough to stand trial? She certainly seems of low intelligence. Was she even capable of typing that letter? I’d bet it was him.

And as a pp said I’d be very surprised if he doesn’t have a pre existing criminal record.

As for poor Margaret’s family, maybe they also had learning difficulties like her. It doesn’t sound as if they were very functional. I dont think a middle class girl would have ended up in that situation.

As for people blaming social services- the adult support and protection act only cane in in 2007 and doesn’t even exist in England at all! There are thousands of vulnerable adults in the U.K. who previously would have been institutionalised but after the 1990 community care act (thanks to the tories) they were left in the community for things like this to happen.

Think about the EC and AJ were only caught because they were numpties.

How many more competent people have also committed a similar crime but were just never caught?

You can grandstand and say ‘have more services’ but support can be £100k per year per person. No one ever says they want to pay the level of tax needed for that. As a society we have chosen (see recent election) to abandon vulnerable people like Margaret into the hands of nefarious people like EC and AJ because they’ll do it for only £60 per week (carers allowance in the U.K.).

[Chihaha]

Interestingly AJ has offered to part pay some of the money back but it has been rejected.

[beepbeeprichie]

Apparently EC used to be quite well off- multiple businesses locally, a boxing gym. Drove a jaguar. One job was collecting on behalf of loan sharks- a good measure of the man he was capable of being.

[notacooldad]

If she really cared, and had concerns about the carers why on Earth didn't she speak up?
I cant remember if she had any specific concerns about them.
If nothing in particular you cant report a hunch.
I didn't think she was rough or anything. Just an older woman caught up in this terrible story.

[purpleme12]

Only watched episode 1 so far. So unbelievably tragic

[WaxOnFeckOff]

My take on the almost step mother is sort of in-between a lot of the views. I think she genuinely enjoyed Margaret's company and had her dad stayed alive and the relationship continued then I think she would have happily been the 2nd parent. However, maybe being the only parent for her would have been a step too far. It's a big responsibility taking on a step child and especially one that would be a lifelong responsibility. Maybe if there had been no-one at all on the scene then she might have given it a go. However, Margaret had her own mother plus her Dad's wish that she went to his "friends" for care. It would take a very big personality and one with a strong wish to take that on to pursue a closer relationship/taking on care in the circumstances.

I think she has also got a bit caught up in the "fame" of it since what happened happened.

I think she did genuinely care for her but it wasn't her responsibility especially as it hadn't been a long relationship as far as I can gather.

[notacooldad]

WaxOnFeckOff
That was the exact opinion I formed.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Of all the people who could have gone to police and/or social services to report concerns about Margaret, her dad's fiancee is very low on my list. Her own family should surely have been making some effort to find out where she was and how she was. Avril's family lived near them and had some concerns, but accepted at face value the ludicrously implausible story that she had gone off with a traveller.

The old asylum system was horrible for many of those who lived there, as they were treated harshly, but at least they had a home and some rights. When the asylums were closed huge sums should have been pumped into care in the community to look after those who can't look after themselves, either because of learning difficulties or mental illness or both. Of course the money was never forthcoming. It's a dreadful indictment of our callous indifference to the weakest members of our society that we're not willing to pay enough tax to pay for decent standards of care and monitoring.

[SchadenfreudePersonified]

Hear, hear GaspOde

[Izzabellasasperella]

This gives a little more info on the case. www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-48523897
Such a sad story.

[fripperyclose]

Interesting that her mother did give evidence but they didn't show it in the documentary.

[notacooldad]

No one cared enough to find out if she was ok. I mean, as a mum, wouldn’t you call the police again every year or so of being sent away from the door?
You are talking from your perspective Freda
Years ago I would have thought the same.
However after spending many years in adult learning disability before moving over to a Children's disability team and now working for challenging young people and families I see things very differently.
I don't know anything about Margaret's mother so I am not speaking about her here but our cases have had mothers that severely neglect and harm all their children, neglect only one of their children and adore the others. Some mothers are incapable of parenting and don't care who looks after them and willingly hands them over to LA care without a second glance. I have worked with a lot of families where mum has moved out of the area and had cut contact with their children and have had one threaten to get police on the social worker for getting in touch with her asking if she wants contact.
I have had at least 3 cases in the last two years where mums have not seen their teenage, school attending seen Daughter for days and have no idea where they are. There are a lot of vulnerable kids and young people being brought up by their dad and no contact from mum at all.

I can see how Margaret's mums side of the family wouldn't miss her.
I wondered the same about neighbours. their garden was very well kept and so close, so they must have been out in the garden often, caring for it and would have been aware of whether two or three people lived next door. I have no idea of the number of people living either side of me. In knew one of my next door neighbours had two young children. I was amazed when I was talking to her before Christmas that they've had a third and he was 10 months old. I didn't know the MIL was still living there either. I havent seen her since before Easter last year. I live on a row of 9 houses. Out of those houses their is only 1 that I know for sure how many people live their ( 1 person). I know a few people by sight but not how the family unit is made up, how many kids are there, who is a visitor etc. These people seem nice as well.

*O

[milliefiori]

@beepbeeprichie - where did you find that extra information on EC? I wanted to read up on his background but couldn't find any info.

[user2314]

When thinking of Eddie we have to imagine him looking like this not 77 and in a wheel chair.

I had assumed that house belonged to Margaret's Father or Grand parents originally but it seems not.

[Sidge]

I just watched this having recorded it.

What a fascinating but tragic case. Really interesting to see the court process, it was obviously heavily edited as there must have been hundreds of hours of witness testimony. Didn’t they get up to witness number 130 or something?

Avril Jones had the look of Rose West about her. I couldn’t work out if she was dim, broken, evil or complicit.

Edward Crainey was an utterly repellent little man. His own barrister rolled his eyes at him many times, and the judge appeared despairing. The prosecutor seemed lovely, so determined to give Margaret a voice and wouldn’t let himself be riled by EC. So patient.

I agree with the detectives, if only they could have found Margaret’s remains (or be told where they were) then they could have laid her to rest. That poor girl. Of 2000 photos only 5 had her in them.

RIP Margaret.

[LizzieMacQueen]

I watched this too already knowing the outcome of course, still compelling to watch.

I liked all the barristers in court. The overwhelming piece of evidence, presented as if towards the end of the case, was the proof that Eddie and Avril had been in the exact same hotel in London that they had sent the letter from! Bingo.

The Judge (Lord Williams was it?) was the Judge on the Alesha McPhail case I think. The sentence in that case was shown on TV though the trial wasn't.

[ParkheadParadise]

@LizzieMacQueen

lan McSporran was also the barrister in the Alesha Mcphail case.

[MazDazzle]

That bbc article is much more thorough than the documentary Izzabella. Thanks for sharing it. Interesting to know that Avril’s mother and brother testified against her in court by the sounds of things.