Making a murderer

[dragonflyinn10]

For those who watched making a murderer part 2 is on Netflix now x

Not surprised to find a guilters thread / KK fan club on MN !
I’m looking forward to seeing Laura Nirider/ Steve Drizin speak in December about their general work for juveniles . Buting and Strang were excellent .

The forensic evidence makes him a murderer BD confession confirms it but isn't essential SA would have been convicted without it. SA history of violence and abuse. (far too horrific for me to repost here) just shows his character.

Surely using that logic, anyone with any history of crimes can be accused of another crime committed that’s similar, even if they didn’t do it. I don’t think the evidence points to guilty beyond reasonable doubt so he should never have been convicted. I come at things from a very logical point of view and based solely on conviction he should have been given not guilty. Wether he did it or not, I guess we will never know. But 40 years of your life in prison? It’s not right is it when you haven’t been proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt. For instance, apparently TH was bound to the bed, raped, then stabbed brutally, apparently her throat was slit etc. There is no evidence to support that. Also, if her throat was slit, why did they shoot her in the head? I haven’t looked into it but, when KZ brought the bullet to be tested with new technology, it showed no bone fragments, which, if the bullet entered and then exited, surely it would have some? That seemed compelling to me. And, there were bullet holes all over the garage and bullets lying around, what’s to stop them planting some dna on it? Can someone confirm if that machine that found the wood etc, is reliable?

He wasn't convicted on any of that though. He was convicted on the blood evidence on her vehicle and the huge wealth of forensics from the fire remains (found days after she vanished) and the further remains found in his burn barrel all corroborated by BD confession. So if you disbelieve the confession and believe the policr planted the evidence. Add to that you need to ignore it's his criminal record of assault andv violence, the two outstanding rape allegations by underage girls and a third by his previous partner. Ignore the fact he was stalking TH was the last person to see her alive after making an appointment with her in someone else's name. Find a reason he took the afternoon of work, then lied about the fire. I just can't square all that and believe he is innocent?

Do you think either of them had a fair trial ?
I’m not sure what happened , but there were so many things wrong with the trial , withheld evidence , not being able to discuss Denny suspects . Both were tried for the same murder , done in two different ways .

I really don't know iff BD had a fair trial but I think SA did. The TV series ignores so evidence it makes me think they know he's guilty but saying he might be innocent made better TV. If BD could explain his uncontrollable sobbing and 40lb weight loss, his talking about hiding bodies in a any manner over than guilt over TH I'd believe in him more too.

Considering that the forensic evidence was all circumstantial and highly suspect, I find it easy to ignore it TBH. I also find it easy to not ignore the fact that there isn't more given what was meant to have been going on in various locations.

I don't know enough about the "stalking" to comment on that, but even if you believe he has committed rape in his life, its a far leap from that to this level of crime.

And if youbelieve BD's confession you have to imagine a person raping someone would just answer the door with a screaming female in the house (who had already been heard outside) when it could have been anyone at the door, and then when he finds out its his nephew he invites him to come in and participate in raping the woman he has chained up in there.

Well anyway, people can decide for themselves what they think is the more credible story here, but independently of that, if the question is simply on whether there is enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt one or both of their guilt, then the answer surely has to be no. Even if you believe one or both of them did it.

I forget the exact answer now but the sobbing and weight loss has been addressed. It was something about a girl splitting up with him, or rejecting him for being overweight or somesuch. These things happen.

Len Kachinsky - jailtime for stalking
Ken Kratz - immunity from jail time but sexually harassing a victim
Therefore by dint of the thread argument , also capable of murder .
Certainly not suitable characters to be commenting any more on this case.

Len Kachinsky - jailtime for stalking
Ken Kratz - immunity from jail time but sexually harassing a victim
Therefore by dint of the thread argument , also capable of murder.

That’s how I was thinking. I really don’t believe Brendan’s confession and therefore can’t be 100% sure on Steven. I do swing more to him being innocent because I think the way the case was handled means we can’t be ever be sure. If ever it’s found he is innocent, I will be so angry that this man has lost 18 years of his life, freed for two and then back in for, what is it now? 12 years? That’s a long time to do for crimes you didn’t commit. I think what makes me so annoyed is, he lost those 18 years and now he has lost a lot more when it cannot be proven (in my opinion) that he is guilty. It’s messed up and we know it happens given the crooked police department, it doesn’t take much to think they have been dodgy again. Especially when multiple people on the case that are meant to be on the side of the law, actually aren’t.

Ken is a creepy fucker and he makes my skin crawl. The audacity that man has to follow the case and the camera is disgusting. Stop sucking up to vulnerable people, it’s gross, especially when it’s vulnerable people that you harass. Wasn’t he also on drugs while the trial and all went on? Nasty man and easily capable of making the case suit him and his needs. God forbid he loses, he should do his job obviously, but to be this invested and rather wrong over right? That’s not good.

Ken Kratz press conference at the Seventh Circuit to promote his book said it all. Kathleen Zellner has the measure of him.
I was most surprised by the treatment of the State Coroner. She was completely terrified and not allowed to do her job. So much abuse of the system - threatened with arrest for trying to do your duty.
Was very glad to see Schimel voted out.

I know this is a zombie thread, but I've just finished watching these series and it was such compelling viewing! Anyone watched recently?

Watched it when it first came out. I wonder if there have been any developments in the case?

Both still in prison. BD out of options unless KZ can get somewhere with SA's case then there might be an avenue for them to explore. If SA gets out but BD doesn't, something is really very wrong

Watched it at the beginning of lockdown.

I need to listen to the rebuttal podcast as I'm inherently suspicious of such a one-sided story being presented as the truth. But it does seem some of the evidence against them both was dodgy and should never have been admitted into evidence

Yup, very one-sided. There's a few books on this which are quite good for balance. Balance doesn't make good telly though.

Great debate on here though. Makes me want to watch all over again.

I think both SA and BD are both guilty.

I don't think it's been discussed upthresd, but am I right in thinking that BD could have plea-bargained for a lesser sentence and was advised against it by Barb Tadych?

Appalling grammar there.

I find myself feeling so sorry for Barb. She is in an impossible position. Her son and brother are both in prison and if they didn't do it, then the next most likely suspects are her other son and her husband. And I can well believe that she couldn't come to terms with Brendan, her youngest child, being guilty of such an horrific crime. And as a family, no one knows better than them that if you're innocent and hang in there, you could be free some day.

I know there is a lot of love for Kathleen Zellner on her, but my god she makes my skin crawl. Thank god for her and people like her with her relentless determination to pick holes in a poorly brought prosecution case, but something about her is just so ... sly.

Mind you, I thought BD's attorney, Laura Nirider, was not a great oral advocate. When she was asked by the 7th Circuit judge "why did the prosecution need 2 murderers?" I couldn't believe she just didn't state the obvious - "to nail Steven Avery". And when she was asked how BD knew all these details about how TH died and the noises she made and what she said... why on earth was she not saying more forcefully "he made it up! there is no corroborating evidence for what he said. so no one can say that it happened at all. he was being pushed into providing details by the officers so he made it up and embellished".

I think the problem with this case, whether they are guilty or not, is that the police did plant evidence and that muddied the waters. Rightly or wrongly, they were convinced of their guilt so manipulated the evidence to fit their case. And unfortunately for them, all it's done is to cast doubt over the prosecution.