Butterfly ITV

[Melamin]

Anyone daring to watch?

(Did it really have a mermaid in it?)

They may not say it but they'll be thinking you're not the same as them. They won't tell you that they're uncomfortable with you in their changing rooms. And they won't see you as a sexy woman, but they will tell you otherwise because women have spent millennia being the punching bag for males and their emotions

I wanted to give birth to my children but had to find a woman to do it for me

This particular part of Jane's post left me cold. Jane needed to find a human baby factory to ejaculate into and provider her with the babies she needed to feel female. You k ow there's a human being with rights, emotions and feelings attached to the uterus Jane? Your poor wife and kids. If I knew her I'd point her to the trans widow thread

I had to 'find a woman' 🙄 to do my cleaning for a while. I actually ended up with a nice man to do my hoovering.

Jane the hatred of women permeates from your offensive and obscene posts. Why don't you get it - playing W with dolls does not make you female, you were unfortunate enough to be raised in a time where boys behaving "like girls" or effeminate in any way was shameful. That's it. The end. You are nothing like females and don't know their struggles. How dare you come on here and equate your selfishness to the loss of someone's child.

Girlfrommars:
"So Jane thinks is normal and OK to judge and rate other women's bodies in changing rooms as long as your not sexually attracted to them.
I can honestly say I have never judged or rated other women's bodies in changing rooms. Other than occasional complementary thoughts. Maybe its because I wouldn't like to think women are rating me. I hope it's the same for most women, but clearly not for the ones AMAB. Oh and another woman's sexuality has never crossed my mind. I guess us bio women have a mutual respect for each other that can't be identified into.
Jane also found a woman to have her kids for her.
I wanted to give birth to my children but had to find a woman to do it for me.
What a disgusting way to refer to the mother of your children. Clearly she thinks women are just vessels for her to use.
Oh and she thinks not having female biology is the same as not being able to have kids even though she has three biological children. Then compared the loss of her relationship with her kids (due to her own actions) as the same as a child dying.
I'm litrially in shock and starting to disbelieve Jane is for real, maybe she's just on a wind up. She's been pretty inconsistent."

Once more let me explain more fully, but please not I am keeping information back until I want to tell you, especially when it affects people very close and dear to me; that is my right and because of it you may well think I am inconsistent.

On the sad subject of "judging" women in changing rooms; I NEVER have, as indeed I am more conscious of my body than anyone else's. I just made the point in context of my full answer to another post that when you glance around in the normal process of getting changed it is noticeable how we are ALL different in our shapes and sizes. That reassures me, but NEVER do I stand and stare and make sexual judgements about other women. The thought of that is offensive to me, so I do not want to offend other women. It helps me get over how my poor body was, and how it is far better now and I can recognise it. However, be honest, do not you judge other people, male and female. Do you not sometimes find yourself thinking he/she is fat / thin/ beautiful / handsome. The woman I am close friends with do, and sometimes I am embarrassed when they say it out loud!!

As for treating another woman, my ex-wife, badly, that isd not how you think it is. Once more I have retained certain facts, but now I will say we met when we were both 16. She took me under her wing when I was very depressed and on the verge of coming out as being trans. But she showed me an opportunity to be very happy, sharing a female life whilst bringing up a family. She knew I liked to look feminine, she put make up on me, we went shopping together, cooked together, etc, etc. She was lovely, and gave me a road to some peace and solace at a time when I needed it. Before we got married at 20 I told her, in a very clumsy way, about my true feelings, but she wanted the marriage to go ahead. On the day of marriage I knew I was doing the wrong thing for her and me, but we had a company house that had been bought for us, had chosen all the furniture and it was all unstoppable as I would upset many people who mattered to me, especially the dear girl who had helped me so much.

We lived out a good marriage, producing 3 children in the first 3 years of marriage (her wish as much as mine) and, without going through a whole catalogue of events that took place during that marriage, after 25 years, and highly importantly the children all now adults with their own homes, I HAD to come out fully before I imploded. This was a terrible time for both of us, but I gave her everything I could; the house, a car, everything in the house. In no way was she, my love, going to suffer for my condition, that by then had various doctors telling me to move out as I was a severe danger to myself and my wife. After 30 years of marriage a divorce, organised by her came through. She wanted nothing to do , understandably, with the though we could still lived together. That led, after a number of rocky situations with my career, to me being homeless, penniless, and very alone.

So you surely can see I did all I could to not treat another women badly, or at least as badly as could have ben the case if I had come out just after our marriage and having three babies.

I am, now, very real, but I own up willingly to being a false person, and a lie for too many decades that helped no one.

Jane I do find it interesting that this thread let's us look through your eyes at the world of someone who used to be a man, so to speak.

For example, you sound almost surprised that women came in different shapes and sizes and compared them to your own body - I do think porn, etc, has a lot to answer for in allowing males to believe that we all have barbie bodies, and I think, depressingly (and this not a slight on you but a mere observation) your posts show how males have been tuned to think about women. And it's not pretty!

TattiusTeddius

Re Jane's comment 'I wanted to give birth to my children but had to find a woman to do it for me'

And your comment 'This particular part of Jane's post left me cold. Jane needed to find a human baby factory to ejaculate into and provider her with the babies she needed to feel female.'

On fairness all men need a woman to make them a father! Just as all women need a man to make them a mother (unless they adopt).

Jane didn't say having children made her feel female, as far as I can see. She said she would have loved to have been the one to birth the childen (my words). Maybe the reality of carrying a baby and giving birth would not be as she wanted but her words don't convey using her wife.

Thanks Italiangreyhound for that understanding.

Penny, as I understood, nicely told her story to me, with questions being asked, to compare what she had been through and what I had on the other side of being trans; in her case until 16.

I did give her full sympathy in the only words I could find to use but words can never cover all. Yes, her loss and subsequent cancer was appalling, and made me very sad for her. NO, I have of course never experienced that personally, but what I have experienced is losing two close female relatives to cancer, having a mother with breast cancer, a daughter losing two still born girl babies, and currently a female friend , in her 30's, with breast cancer (she has had a double mastectomy) and her having to soon have her uterus and ovaries removed. So I DO empathise with what Penny has gone through, but of course I am not a stupid enough woman not to know that I weill never have that problem.

No matter what I say on this thread, there are some who are determined to be as insulting as possible, as transphobic as they can, and belittle me as much as possible. No matter what I say, how I explain it (and words alone are very limiting) it will always be answered in a very coloured, predetermined way that supports their narrative on the subject.

Even when it comes to the infamous toilet / changing room threads they are assuming I am a 6 foot plus, heavily built and tattooed, hairy man with a wig on who can be identified as 'male' from miles away. How simplistic and very untrue. You will never know me, but I know I am very passable as a woman should look and dress, and are treated as a grandmother figure by a large number of women I know. I am considered very girly, but 'playing with dolls' is not on the agenda; you ARE all right, that does not identify you as women!! Arte am a woman for reasons much deeper and decades longer than that!!

that last sentence : "Arte am a woman for reasons much deeper and decades longer than that!!"

should reasd
"I am a woman for reasons much deeper and decades longer than that!!

Jane's back tracking again.

Jane said she compared herself to other women and looks better than some. She said this gives her validation.

Now apparently she is just observing differences.

Again Jane brings sexuality into it. No one is saying they think you're judging women sexually or looking at them as sexual objects. They are saying bio women don't rate and judge other women when they are naked in changing rooms, sexually or otherwise. It's not OK to be assessing other women when they are naked in a changing room. It's not about sexuality it's about respect. A lesbian gets that, a transwomen clearly doesn't.

AFWIW - I do sometimes compare my looks to other women's, but only when they are in public and fully clothed, or in the media . Not when they're just trying to get changed after a swim.

TattiusTeddius|:
"Jane I do find it interesting that this thread let's us look through your eyes at the world of someone who used to be a man, so to speak.

For example, you sound almost surprised that women came in different shapes and sizes and compared them to your own body - I do think porn, etc, has a lot to answer for in allowing males to believe that we all have barbie bodies, and I think, depressingly (and this not a slight on you but a mere observation) your posts show how males have been tuned to think about women. And it's not pretty!"

Yes, I agree with most of that!!!

You try living as a women trapped in a mans body, but then having to live amoungst them for 40+ plus years and not pick up on their thoughts (often disgusting) and ideas on women. It certainly affected my mind and maybe why you all are picking up on certain things I say. When you live beside an infected animal you can pick up their infection without knowing it. All my life I tried to avoid 'male' situations - the pub, club, toilets, sport, changing rooms, social, men only gatherings (which one of my rugby playing sons picked up on and hated me for as I could never be 'one of the lads'!!), etc, etc.

Now I just want to rid myself of everything male (I even turned down the advances of a lovely 35 year old man recently who has dated me, and wanted the relationship to continue, but he was far too young!!) I have succeeded much in that quest, but I am NOT perfect yet, but want to be as much as possible before I pass away.

I sincerely hope that answers many of your doubts.

Jane. Penny has said your previous post left her cold. In response you have doubled down and protested that 'I did give her full sympathy' and 'I DO empathise'.

Would it not be better to simply apologise for being so insensitive?

I find Jane the very personification of creepy and deluded. So obviously in need of far more therapy.

An over 65 grandmother figure attracting a 35 year old man? Yeah right.

Maybe accepting that you are in fact a homosexual man would go some way in to helping you heal. You don't accept yourself for who you actually are (without the delusions) but expect us to accept your deluded sense of reality ie your claim to be a woman. As someone upthread said: it doesn't matter what surgery, hormones you have or how you dress, Or if you have a piece of paper saying otherwise, you will always be biologically male.

On fairness all men need a woman to make them a father! Just as all women need a man to make them a mother (unless they adopt).

Oh come on Italian you know as well as I do what I meant, how Jane worded it shows what Jane thinks of women

of course I am not a stupid enough woman not to know that I weill never have that problem

Jane, women just don't talk like that, it's a very weird way of phrasing it. We would say "of course I am not stupid enough to know" we don't need to add I AM A WOMAAAAN to every bloody sentence!

PencilsInSpace :
"Jane. Penny has said your previous post left her cold. In response you have doubled down and protested that 'I did give her full sympathy' and 'I DO empathise'.

Would it not be better to simply apologise for being so insensitive?"

If that is how Penny has perceived my post then of course I will unreservedly apologise for any offence I caused her, and any insensitivity I displayed. That was never my intention.

6 foot plus, heavily built and tattooed

Jane, I'm only just short of six foot, stocky and very tattooed. Nooone has ever mistake me for a man as it's bloody obvious I am not one.

PerverseConverse:
"I find Jane the very personification of creepy and deluded. So obviously in need of far more therapy.

An over 65 grandmother figure attracting a 35 year old man? Yeah right."

LOL. It just shows your pre-determined ideas on how I look. I look attractive enough for some to get 35 year old men after me, and also 60 year old's x4 to date. Just goes to prove, with many other comments, often from women, I DO actually look 10 years younger !!!!

"Deluded"? No, just seeing the actual facts of my day to day situation which gives me hope I am winning my personal battle.

BeyondVicious:
"6 foot plus, heavily built and tattooed

Jane, I'm only just short of six foot, stocky and very tattooed. Nooone has ever mistake me for a man as it's bloody obvious I am not one."

Right, just as people see me as a woman because I obviously look like one! [smile}

It's actually very easy to recognise sex from just looking at a person. Women are very good at this. Maybe it's instinctual, maybe it's biology, maybe men have not had to have that extra layer of protection permanently ingrained in the back of their mind.

It's not just appearance either. It's an air. Men walk, talk, sit, posture, communicate and converse differently. It's very subtle and would be hard to emulate. Especially older men who have had a lifetime of socialisation. They use the word 'I' a lot more and focus on themselves when they think they are showing empathy. There are lots of clues that women use to detect maleness and it happens so fast that we're not even aware of it. We just know.

BeyondVicious:
"of course I am not a stupid enough woman not to know that I will never have that problem

Jane, women just don't talk like that, it's a very weird way of phrasing it. We would say "of course I am not stupid enough to know" we don't need to add I AM A WOMAAAAN to every bloody"

Sorry, it has become a habit on here as so many have not got the message I am a woman, but not a biological.

but I know I am very passable as a woman should look and dress

There it is again. Women are a stereotype, and one that transwomen reinforce.

and are treated as a grandmother figure by a large number of women I know. I am considered very girly,

Yeah, not buying it.

jane i'm not going to say anything else, because I don't need to. You are informative enough, by yourself.

I can't even advise you find ways to respect women more. Because I know you won't.

Jane No matter how loudly you shout it, no matter how often you repeat it ad nauseum, you are not a woman and never will be. Woman is biologically determined and that's why you will never be one because you can't change your biological sex.

Fairenuff :
"It's actually very easy to recognise sex from just looking at a person. Women are very good at this. Maybe it's instinctual, maybe it's biology, maybe men have not had to have that extra layer of protection permanently ingrained in the back of their mind.

It's not just appearance either. It's an air. Men walk, talk, sit, posture, communicate and converse differently. It's very subtle and would be hard to emulate. Especially older men who have had a lifetime of socialisation. They use the word 'I' a lot more and focus on themselves when they think they are showing empathy. There are lots of clues that women use to detect maleness and it happens so fast that we're not even aware of it. We just know."

I (there I go!!) have heard that before and it is very interesting.

My process" has included teaching on posture, gestures, body movement and speech, etc. etc, I also noted early in my teenage years that was vital, so when, being unisex in dress and appearance, I taught myself to mirror the females around me in those traits.