Game of Thrones Season 7, Episode 4 discussion thread *SPOILERS*

[OlennasWimple]

WARNING: HERE BE DRAGONS (probably) AND SPOILERS

THIS THREAD IS FOR DISCUSSION OF SEASON 7, EPISODE 4 "THE SPOILS OF WAR"

Come and discuss the fourth episode in the penultimate series, airing August 7th at 2am UK time! Don't read the thread if you want to avoid finding out what happens in Season 7 but also Seasons 1-6. If you have seen the leaked episode, please hold back from commenting on it until after the episode has aired to avoid spoilers for those of us who haven't been able to get a version to work

HBO description of the episode: Daenerys fights back. Jaime faces an unexpected situation. Arya comes home.

Please avoid discussing leaks and production details for Seasons 7 and 8 but speculate away on what we have learnt from the new episodes and what it might mean for the rest of the Season and the ultimate winner(s) of the Game of Thrones

Someone just shared this on FB.....

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=2aWwZl8MLQA

Question: is the iron throne made from valerian steel swords? Or a mixture of swords???
If it's valerian steel maybe it will need to be melted down....?

ginger - no, it's jsut regualr swords, albeit ones melded by dragon fire

I like for gore and guts

Brienne of Tarth won't you spread your giant legs for me I did not expect that.

Loved both those videos - thanks guys.

In the psst, show-only characters have proved to be unimportant in their own right and only serve to move forward the storylines of the main characters or secondary characters (Ros/Talisa). I suspect the NK will be like that.

I'm still waiting for some book characters to turn up. If you know the significant revelation in the final chapter of book 3, well, I suppose they must have elected to drop that storyline. But it would have been a nice shock ending for an earlier episode.

they must have elected to drop that storyline

It would appear so. Arya got Manderly's Frey Pies and singlehandedly wiped out the rest of the Freys. The Brotherhood are now the saviours of the universe with Beric's flaming sword and the Hound's flaming chickens visions to guide them.

Now the iron bank are talking about Cersei hiring the Golden Company. Unfortunately, I imagine it will be a Golden Company without fAegon!

Wasn't all the money for cersei to pay off the iron bank en route to King 's landing when dany attacked?

So she's a little bit fucked, I think.

Great episode.

Am I misrembering, but I was under the impression that if Bran passed through the wall it would fall down? Obviously that hasn't happened so I suspect I'm thinking of a fan theory that didn't pan out.

I reckon next episode is going to be dull, with the final episode being dany taking over kings landing and getting her arse on that throne.

And then cut to a trillion billion white walkers coming over the wall.....

Wasn't all the money for cersei to pay off the iron bank en route to King 's landing when dany attacked?

No, Tarly said that all the gold had made it through the city gates. It was the grain train that was attacked.

Tycho told Cersei in the beginning of the episode that if they got all their gold back they may be willing to help in other 'investments' such as the Golden Company. Cersei said something along the lines that the Golden Company would be useful to take back some things that belong to her (probably Dorne, Vale, North).

This storyline will be used to 'draw' out the human part of the war alongside the war against the White Walkers, and will take the place of the war between Dany and fAegon in the books.

The wall could still have lost its magic 'shield' without falling down?

Arya how do you know there is a war between Dany and Aegon in the books - or have I totally forgotten reading that part!? Is it something GRRM has said will happen?

Is it something GRRM has said will happen?

GRRM has said that there is going to be a second Dance of the Dragons in later books. I can only assume this is going to end in some form of conflict between team-Dany and team-fAegon.

OF course it could be between teamDany and teamJon...!

Ah ok thanks, in the book/s A Dance with Dragons all the contenders for the throne are the dragons.... but a specific dance of dragons event would be succession for the Targaryen throne?

Bran causing the wall to fall was fan speculation based on the mark the NK left on his, and the fact that the WW could get into the 3ER's tree cave thingy as the magic shield had been broken as a result.

We don't know whether the wall has been similarly affected - I'm not sure why the WW would go to the effort of heading to East The Water (as suspected) if they could simply go over or through the wall. I'm certain that it has to come down at some point in the remaining shows, though - simple spectacular TV story telling demands it

The history of the first dance of the dragons is here:

awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dance_of_the_Dragons

In the books there are a couple of moments of 'prophecy' that hint at a power struggle between dragons. The first is Patchface:

Under the sea smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black

The greens and blacks represent the two sides in the original dance of the dragons. Blue is a colour associated with Starks, and is an early indication that Jon Snow is a Targaryan. There are other hints that he is associated with blue roses.

Then there is Dany's vision in the House of the Undying which comes along with the Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies bit:

A cloth dragon sways on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

This is the mummer's dragon or fake dragon.A very commonly held theory (not proven by any means) is that Aegon is a fake dragon and probably a Blackfyre (descended from a bastard son of Aegon the Unworthy). One theory is that he's the son of Magister Ilyrio, and is who Varys has been working to put on the throne.

Either way, there is no certainty that there will be a war between Dany and fAegon but I think it's looking increasingly likely. In the show, there is no real credible reason why Cersei has managed to remain in power other than she is there to represent some 'opposition' that Westeros will have to Dany taking power. In the books I reckon fAegon will take power from Cersei shortly after she blows up a good portion of King's Landing and so the military opposition to Dany's conquest will be from fAegon's supporters. The 'out of nowhere' mention of the Golden Company seems to back this up.

I'm not saying I'm right on any of this. I'm just trying to join show-dots and book-dots together and try to figure out a story narrative that makes some sort of sense.

It's making my head hurt...

I don't think in the books Cersei will blow up Kings Landing... I think D&D took the time that she blew up the Tower of the Hand to provide wedding pyrotechnics and twisted it slightly to make it fit the show plot lines (as they do with lots of other book details that can't be accomodated in the constraints of the show)

I don't know whether Cersei will blow up KL or not. There are hints that there are caches of old wildfire all over the city but I don't know whether or not it's all been used up in Blackwater/Tower of Hand.

Either way, I do think something's going to happen with respect to her trial. Possibly she could unleash Robert Strong who could go berserk and kill lots of innocent bystanders.

I do think something's going to happen which means KL is ripe for takeover by fAegon who will be welcomed by a cheering crowd - in advance of Dany sailing for Westeros.

Again, I don't know if it will happen that way but I definitely don't think Cersei will be able to muster up as effective a military opposition to Dany as she has in the show given her show circumstances.

Thanks Arya - my brain is hurting just reading the summary - but that depth to the history of Westeros is probably a main reason why the series is so successful. TBH I would have preferred Cersei to have been wrapped up with by now on the tv series and have kept closer to the books, but possibly that move would have also finished too many other favourite characters stories at the same time.

Lurching off piste a bit here, I've been making up my own plots. Jaime is presumably now captured by Danaerys. How fabulous would it be if they fell for each other? How amazingly pissed off would this make a) Cersei b) Jon c) Tyrion d) Jorah e) speculators and followers of narrative convention? Yes I know he's a bit old for her, but he's not her actual nephew or brother (probably) so that's a plus point.

I realise that with 11 episodes left to go, huge cat among the pigeon game-changers won't happen. But a girl can dream.

In the sample chapters of Winds fAegon has already landed in Westeros. Dany will probably take a few more books.

Winter!!! I honestly had the same thought It would be hilarious and so unlikely lols I can just imagine the uproar now.

Winter I would enjoy your version of GoT much more.

How old was Jaime when he killed the Mad King? He was made Kingsguard unusually young, wasn't he? So he's probably under 20 years older than Dany.

Jorah at least could not complain about the age gap.