Meet Britain's Chinese Tiger Mums BBC 2 Now!

[sailorsgal]

I think I'm going to feel like a bad mother.

Whoa there....this is about culture, a culture in which things that are accepted are inhumane, this is not about race.

FellatioNelson I too find absolutely abhorrent what has being happening to animals in some institutions in China. I agree absolutely with anyone who thinks that cruelty to animals is an important issue and that we will better express our humanity the better we treat animals (or all relatively weak and defenceless such as children and women).

My mother, who was born and grew up in China, was a great animal lover, especially of cats. She would have been absolutely appalled at the treatment of cats and dogs which so appalled Morrissey. But she was - unusually for a Chinese woman of her generation - a well-educated person. So much depends on circumstances to shape our views on things.

China is a very large country - and very badly governed by a corrupt and narrow minded dictatorship. It does not surprise me that many evil things happen there. However I must object when some, such as Morrissey, seem to be suggesting that this is the result of a basic genetic fault. And he is far from the only one.

Incidentally, on foxhunting, I lived for many years in the countryside (Wiltshire), and there was a very strong support there in favour of foxhunting.

Fellatio, I am sure that you are basically part of the tolerant generous majority which are those who actually make Britain truly great. Forgive me if I flew off the handle a bit, but perhaps you can summon up a little bit of empathy for my position. As I wrote, I'm not concerned about myself, but about the future of such as my nieces, who are fully British in every way but happen to be half-Chinese.

Do people still believe in a racially inheritable genetic predisposition? Not many, surely, perhaps those in the BNP etc, but absolutely no one takes a blind bit of notice of them except them themselves.

Posie's culture point is an important one.

PosieParker Thanks for the assurance that you can tell the difference.

Sadly there are many who can't.

Trouble is Frank, you're talking to people who agree with you! We can see your point and indeed agree with and support it, so some of us get cross when it appears we are being accused of stereotyping!

It's all such a minefield

Phew....thanks for wading though my typos!!

And Frank, those people who can't see the difference (whoever they may be) are the same ones who think Indians stink of curry, black people belong in trees, French people don't wash etc etc. A narrow and ignorant mind is just that with regards to everything "other." It's about the mindset more than the specific ethnicity targetted at any given moment.

Posie, I think you need to seperate state from the people. As Frank says, the country is governed in a manner so far removed from the UK's democracy that you've no concept of.

If you look over to Hong Kong where there is more freedom, are there these dying rooms and forced terminations you speak of? No.

China as a country is very wealthy now but much of this wealth is in the hands of the few. If you are poor in China then poverty is very real. Not the stupid poverty in the UK where you can still afford to buy fags and have a roof over your head, all paid for by the government.

No, instead you literally starve. Speak out? Then if you are lucky you will disappear and be put in prison. If you are less lucky then you'll probably just get shot.

In that sort of environment I doubt animal welfare will be the top of your agenda too.

Yes Frank, I can have empathy for your position.

Hullygully One of my professional hats is as a biologist - at present part-time lecturing in human evolution, physiology and behaviour.

Believe me, there are great number of people who believe in racially inheritable genetic predisposition. Some even hold places as lecturers in universities.

There are actually quite a number of "scientific" websites devoted to disseminating the idea that "races" differ markedly in ability, character etc.etc. ("blacks" are less intelligent than "whites", "whites" are the most creative, "whites" are the most "beautiful" etc.etc. There's even a "black" backlash - called Afrocentrism - which claims that "blacks" are superior to other races).

If it weren't for the vast plethora of pornographic websites, I would actually claim that racist (overtly or covertly) websites were among the commonest on the internet.

Incidentally, as a scientist, I don't rule out the possibility that some average difference in abilities may exist between different groups. However the difference are at most only average ones (e.g. intelligent and stupid people exist in all "races"). Also, the usual popular distinctions in"race" are far too crude and unscientific (e.g. there may be more difference between two "black" groups then between either and a "white" group)

Ah, well if we are talking intelligence leagues here don't you Chinese always come out at the top? Why worry!!!!

Fellatio - that's another stereotype I don't believe in!

Actually I think it's Koreans and Ashkenazi Jews who are more often quoted as top. But I don't believe that either - as it's all based on a single way of measuring "intelligence".

Some of the silliest people I have come across are members of Mensa!

Niceguy. Perhaps you forget that HK was ruled by the Brits until recently. Therefore the culture in HK is different. Erm and I have got a concept of the way China is ruled, it's not rocket science. The way people are controlled has an affect, why wouldn't it? The lack of information and ballance can shape a country, eg. I bought my child Chinese Lego. On the side of the item was a quote saying how the Chinese had invented lego. The belief forcefed that Chinese are superior is EVERYWHERE. Of course it affects people.

I am also aware of the spread of wealth, I don't walk around with my eyes shut. There will be an uprising in my lifetime, I am sure.

Umm I have a question without wishing to seem thick. What happens to Tiger mothers child/ren after all there can only be one top student in each class. So do all the Tiger children get bereated daily for coming second or third, and presumably in middle class areas many mothers are Tiger in each class so how do they handle their DC not coming first? This really does interest me.

It was only a silly programme which I suspect was slightly tongue in cheek anyway, as mentioned before I am Chinese, and I simply enjoyed the programme I don't think it is a true representation of all Chinese parents, some of us are lazy, laid back and indulgent whilst others are strict and ambitious. What I find more interesting is the fact this discussion had started to get nasty, and it makes me quite disheartened.

Trying, I hope I haven't offended, but suspect I may have. Chinese culture in China is like nothing else, not like second gen Chinese or Chinese that have settled elsewhere. Like any culture there are definable parts, lazy maybe but true all the same.

Like any harsh ruled country the general populous cannot escape the regime.

yes, but it's all lovely now, and that's the main thing.

Given I was born in HK I of course haven't forgotten that HK was ruled by Britain.

I'm not sure which way to read your post? Because culture-wise, despite UK rule, the people there have more in common with culture in China than the UK.

Given the rule of law by a democratic(ish) government, the populace are overwhelmingly peaceful. If you've ever been there, you could walk around after dark naked and get arrested far quicker than you'd be raped. I'm not so sure if you walked around London.

So are you suggesting that we're only like this because of the fact the British ruled? And that without that, we'd be leaving our baby girls to die at the side of the road?

Culture doesn't make people abandon their kids. Desperation and poverty does.

Hi
I dont think the programme made people dislike Chinese parents/ parenting. I admire discipline and hardwork, I just wish that I too could instill that in our 8 year old or the twins we are expecting in a couple of weeks. Its a delicate balancing act.
Perhaps the thing to bear in mind is that we are raising children today, tomorrows adults, whom we ought to equip with the tools necessary to survive. We wont always be there to protect them and the truth is its tough and competitive out there.
People who excel arent usually 'well rounded'. They spend excessive amounts of time practising etc. The book "Outliers" is an interesting read.
The program was definetly food for thought, but like most things in life, I only pick up practices/ habits that suit my principles, lifestyle etc. One thing for sure is there will be more piano practice in this house, more time set aside to read and a lot less TV watching!

Idontknowetc. Interesting question.

I expect that the actual degree of "tigerishness" varies greatly - as it did to some extent between the three mothers in the programme, and they would be among the more extreme ones. There may be many who while maintaining a tigerish appearance are actually more relaxed when it came the crunch.

Between my two parents - both Chinese - it was actually my mother who was more relaxed about our academic achievements.

More importantly, I know that both my parents loved us their children very much. They weren't uber-tigerisch, but what there was, was due largely to love and concern for us. "Tigerishness" and "love" aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

My dds friend has a tiger mum and its pretty scary what she is expected to achieve , she is only allowed to socialise on special occasions Birthdays mainly , and the odd cinema trip , I feel sad for her but who knows she may grow up to be a doctor /brain surgeon /quantum mechanic and be very happy ,

It's like Macau, HK took influences and freedoms afforded to it by Britain. Our 99 year rule had an impact, of course it did. And culture above poverty puts a bucket at the side of the road, drowning baby girls. It is culture alone that makes a girl less valuable.

Cultures evolve with time and improving living standards, you only have to read a dickens novel to see how English women, children and the poor were once treated! UK rule in HK had an impact but you must remember why Britain got HK in the first place, Opium wars? It was a terrible episode for all involved, google it! Saying that I am not one to look back at history and blame it solely for current issues, instead I believe that as the world opens up and we learn compassion, respect and tolerance from each other, mingle with each other and realise we ain't all that different that things will change. There are many chinese dissidents within and outside china campaigning for change but people need to remember that china is still largely a rural county and most of the populous are engaged in survival so a tiger mum would be as strange to them! Tiger mums are actually am improvement, for my mums generation, corporal punishment was also the norm whilst these days it's pretty non existent.

Really? The school my mother's charity donated money to a school where teachers routinely screamed, shouted and threw books at children. I do think we can afford to be compassionate in the UK, I understand the difficulties of poverty and how it is much easier to control a poor and sometimes uneducated population. My father liaises with numerous factories in the South, in fact his job is to see if the Chinese are upholding human rights, and work is incredibly slow and difficult.

I think an important distinction I must make is the difference between narrowed expectations of an individual due to their origin and an acceptance of differences, as well as my 'Chinese' observations are about the culture as a whole and not individuals. (hope this explanation is clear)

The school my mother's charity donated money to was one where teachers routinely screamed, shouted and threw books at children