Meet Britain's Chinese Tiger Mums BBC 2 Now!

[sailorsgal]

I think I'm going to feel like a bad mother.

I've lived in China and the study ethic is very different from here, so I wasn't surprised by the programme. I also teach a lot of Chinese university students so I am very aware of the differences in education systems and teaching techniques. It seemed quite representative to me. Chinese parents take education more seriously than British ones tend to, and I think it's something to admire. Obviously these cases were a little extreme but each to their own - better than the other extreme.

FrankH do you think any give a stuff how Romany people feel? :o
Theres all kinds of Rom and I guess all kinds of Chinese?

Some of us are big on education - just not through Gaudja schools.
We watched it because everone thought Kumon would be a big deal and my kids do a (longer) Rom version of Kumon every day - even today - which is our Christmas day. (Baxtalo Bozhik! Baxtalo Krallis Divus! to you all. :)) They think they should have today off! :o

I think theres no point getting worried about how people see you as a race - because they will see you how they want too if thats how they are and we all have our prejudices - otherwise we wouldnt be doing things differently from each other.

poor poor kids, where is the fun? where are the silly family jokes and usual interactions.

think stick with my own happy healthy fun loving, working well ., normal sociable popular loving kids..

I wasn't insulted at all btw. I thought all the mothers came across as very devoted. If you have lived in a chinese country, you'd see the parallel in some of the things the tiger mums do, if only a bit extreme. But the study hard culture is indeed very ingrained. Another tidbit I remember now is I got books as xmas presents for years when I was a baby.

I mean young child. Got baby all on my brain atm because it's friday afternoon and end of work week and I can spend all weekend with my LO :)

thebody That's rather naive of you to say that... Do you seriously think they will make a programme about 'tiger mums' and show family jokes and usual interactions? Ha ha. I actually saw quite a few humorous interactions between the parents and kids... And who is to say they are not happy, healthy, fun loving, working well, normal sociable and popular loving kids?

I just don't see that this is all that different or unique to Chinese culture, to be honest. Getting books for Christmas is totally normal - I did too. Most cultures want their children to be well-educated but if there is a difference in Chinese culture, it might be in the approach to education. There seems to be a prevalence of learning by rote in Chinese educational systems, possibly because that's the only way to learn Chinese characters, for example, so that has influenced the whole educational experience.

That said, learning by rote was the norm in the West until recently too. I had an old-fashioned education (in Ireland - by nuns!) and remember learning Irish grammar by rote when I was only 7 years old. We had charts on the wall at school with the declensions of the three types of verbs and the irregular verbs as well. I still remember them to this day... We had to learn the times tables by rote as well, dates in History etc. From what I hear, schooling has changed now to emphasise independent exploration of ideas, creativity etc. Don't know if that's a good or bad thing as my DS isn't old enough to be at school yet.

InMyChime it's the Confusius way of learning. I remember having to memorise pieces of literature by memory. Not sure what they do here, but certainly when I went to NZ, they never made me memorise shakespeare.

Well, Irish nuns must be influenced by Confucius then because my entire education was learning by rote as well...!

Admittedly things were on the cusp of change by the time I went through primary school (1980s) but there were still some of the old nuns around. They would have given any tiger mom a run for her money - one memory is of a friend getting rapped on the knuckles with a ruler 3 times because she dared to be creative and decorate a page where she'd been practising her letters instead of just writing out by rote as instructed... we also had to memorise Shakespeare and poetry in Irish once we were older. I think the system in Ireland has changed a lot now though, since the 1990s.

As a chinese british woman I watched the programme and laughed so hard at times as it reminded me of my own childhood, my parents were uber strict yet as grandparents my kids view them as the fun ones whilst call their English ones strict! Education is important and in some ways I think there is an element of tiger mum in me as I generally don't let my kids quit things and they do have to do their homework and try hard at school but I don't think this is a Chinese thing, as I often meet mums of all backgrounds who could be called serious tigers, mums who expect their toddlers to eventually attend Cambridge and get into top selective schools, who have tutors on tap and attend hours of sports practice regardless of weather!! I'm more of a ginger cat compared to them!
I personally thought most of them were quite nice, the quiet husband was actually quite sensitive to what was happening and in my mind was taking the right approach, bending when the wind blows but when it stops standing tall to offer the son something to lean on, Matthew clearly loves his parents and they him.
There has to be a happy medium somewhere! I know friends who felt their parents should have pushed them more and others that felt they were pushed too much but ultimately, most of us are fine!

Having watched this and read the book,I have definately taken positives away from it.
Previously I felt that primary aged children should not have homework and do all their learning in school,and that home time is play time.
However, I have come away admiring the tiger mothers dedication and drive in wanting to do their best to help their children achieve their potential. While I wouldn't personally pursue this to extremes,it has taught me that my approach has been to do with my own laziness in reality,rather than anything else!
It seems that to get something worth having,you have to put a certain amount of effort in - you don't get owt for nowt!
I really can see myself now investing half an hour a day,or something,in doing some extra spelling or whatever with the kids over and above our usual quarter of an hour or so of unenthusiastic () set homework per day.

That won't hurt them or me.

I enjoyed the programme and the book by Amy Chua. I viewed them as an opportunity to learn/understand a certain groups world view. Granted I'm from a different generation (born in 70's), but growing up in the Caribbean I raised in a slightly similar manner. While we may not have had written schedules we never allowed socialise during week days (ie play dates etc) and we only were allowed to watch Evening news during term time. On returning from school we had nap, then dinner, then our mom went through our school bags then we did home work supervised by her and chores were fitted in between. We were thought that school work came first and foremost. While by many peoples standards these mums are extreme, its not only Chinese mothers who apply this methodology (as Amy stated in her book). Personally such a rigours schedule would to work not work for me and my family. Neither my husband nor I care to be that strict. However, I do believe in the ole adage, to each his own. We can all learn something from each other. While we do no have to apply such methods in its entirety there are are elements of if that many children today would benefit from, eg routine and structure.

I think the show is the equivalent of the Big Fat Gypsy Wedding horror. Same extreme slice of life presented as normal for an entire ethnic group, which is a shame because stereotyping is never helpful.

In the US, which doesn't have much of a safety net besides joining the military when you leave school with no third level education available to you, midle class parents of all ethnicities spend a fortune and pretty much all their time schlepping their children around to various activities and lessons all afternoon every afternoon and on weekends too. I knew a family that was up to their ears in Irish dancing, which is where the Irish and Irish-American tiger 'moms' were to be found in droves. On top of homework, extra academic classes and several hours of dancing practice were the norm for the children.

Many immigrant groups in the US, including Chinese, are very anxious to take advantage of what is offered, educationally-speaking, and push their children. Many also feel it is important to keep their children in touch with their native culture. I knew Polish and Russian families whose children spent their entire Saturday year round at Russian or Polish language class, with homework assigned... Many come from cultures where education has traditionally been valued as the only way out of poverty or obscurity, Russia-Eastern Europe, Ireland, Nigeria, Phillippines and China being obvious examples of ethnicities I came across where parents were not afraid to say "Homework first/ here's a list of Ivy League universities you will be able to choose from when you are 17" to their 6 year olds and to insist that homework and studying were done first thing, consistently and without fail.

There are plenty of Irish parents in Ireland who do this sort of thing too (and probably plenty British born and bred if the producers looked hard enough) -- I think a lot of Irish parents are conscious of the global competition their children face if they either have to emigrate to find work or if they stay in Ireland, so pushing is seen as acceptable either way. In the 90s there was also a consciousness that this was Ireland's moment (as mentioned above in respect of China) and that whoever missed the bus would miss it for good; many parents did not want to see their children and future grandchildren falling through the cracks. I think schools in Ireland and the exam system may be on the way to change, but parent attitudes were formed in the 'olden days' and that will take a while to go away, if it ever does.

I remember being drilled in Irish grammar, learning my times tables and having mental arithmetic competitions in class in my convent primary school in Dublin in the 70s, and learning poetry in both Irish and English until I could recite it in my sleep (frequently did, as we had to recite the previous night's homework in school) in secondary. And lots of Shakespeare, the better to regurgitate it in the essays of the Leaving Cert to back up a point. Maths was taught at breakneck speed and what you couldn't understand you had to work out by yourself at home. Teachers started the year saying, "If you [follow this plan of work and study] you will get an A in the Leaving Cert", and they were right. My parents never pushed, but the teachers definitely did, and I went to a Community School so they weren't even nuns. I always received books usually some sort of encyclopedia/'how things work'/history of the world and classic novel for Christmas (Treasure Island, Black Beauty, The Secret Garden, Tarka the Otter, etc.) and always give books to my DCs.

Did anyone see the programme about grammar schools which was on bbc4 at the same time as 'tiger mums' ( on iplayer now) from what I saw the teaching methods used per war in these schools would echo those of the tiger mums.

the thing that got me was the 3 -5 HOURS a day of homework/music..... WOW that just shuts out the real world totally.

I feel so inadequate - my girls only play the piano .......for fun..... gulp......

That sounds pretty normal. Three hours isn't all that much with music practice and a bit of compulsory extra maths and reading for older primary school age. Five a bit of a stretch maybe but secondary level homework and studying plus practice/sport could take that much time easily.

DD1 and DS were in school in the US from 5.30 am for football/weightlifting/swimming practice and then to 5.30 pm for more every day during the football and swimming seasons, and then they had a good four hours of homework on top of that. DD1 had early morning practice, then school, then after school a meet or practice every day (meets meant she could be back at school as late as 10 pm) then homework on top of that. She usually tried to get some work done on the bus and between events.

mathanxiety wow, that sounds completely extreme. did they go on to compete in the Olympics or something What happened to doing sport for the fun of it?

They had lots of fun, mixed with very positive and motivated kids, and ended up looking well-rounded on their university applications, which is a form of Olympic-level competition many American teenagers engage in and practice for as soon as they can read, count to ten, kick a ball and wield a bat. It really should be in the Olympics; there is that much dedication and focus attached to it.

DD1 talked me into letting her swim (and also do water polo). She also did badminton, so she had autumn, winter and spring sports going for two years, but just swimming and badminton another year. She missed the swimming sign up date because she was trying out for volleyball and softball in her first year (too petite and short for either).

DS talked me into letting him do football. I wanted hm to do baseball because I feared injuries associated with football and I had grave doubts about the macho culture. But he had a blast and didn't pick up any bad habits.

DD1 (grammar school now at uni) would observe "Chinese parents..... that's how they are" . " of her close friends at school were Chinese and they were almost never allowed out to sleepovers etc (though the girl, as she got older knew exactly how to time asking for "time off" to be able go out sometimes).

However DD would apply the "Chinese parents " label to other kids parents of any ethnic origin though. I'd certainly apply it to my Iraqi colleague at work- her primary age kids were heavily tutored with a view to places at the best local secondaries etc as well as arabic school and mosque school.

Mind you I think all the kids I knew/know from non english speaking ethnic groups go so some sort of Saturday school- even in the 1980s when I was at school my friend Diaga went to Latvian school.

I kind of admire these mums.

I think there is good in them.

It must be hard to live in a foreign country and to raise children in ways that are completely different from what is considered "normal" around you, and to be considered crazy because you are doing what you think is best for your kids.

I really liked that they didn't boast that their kids were so clever, they just said that if they worked hard, they could achieve. I like that attitude.

WRT the sports -- the children who were really being pushed at sports were on travelling teams/private clubs from age 7 or 8 onwards, with year-round commitment and expenditure in the thousands $$$ for travel all over the US to tournaments. The big things in the suburb I lived in for girls were softball and volleyball and for boys baseball and volleyball, with soccer, basketball and swimming for both. For those children, school sports was an adjunct to their regular sports schedule, almost like competing in a house league. Universities sent talent scouts to watch the travel teams far more than to the high school, where you had to be an outstanding athlete (and probably therefore already on their radar through travel team participation) to warrant attention.

Speaking as someone who had children abroad, I think it's far easier to do things your own way when you're away from your own native country. You stand out like a sore thumb no matter what you do when you're 'forrin' so you might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. And you can put funny looks down to the strangeness of the natives instead of being wounded by snide remarks from people from your own culture.

You really don't have to be Chinese to be a Tiger mum. I watched that programme and the mums were like the white middle class mums in our village. Kumon maths, two instruments, a sport or four, extra tuition whether tiny needs it or not. Extra homework on downloaded sheets or Bond books because school doesn't give you enough. The children are scheduled within an inch of their lives. Trying to get a playdate is like extracting blood. And I buy into some of it.

What interests me is that these people worked so hard for not that much. To be a dentist? An accountant? even though they hate accountancy? And Langlang, talented and adorable as he is, had a shit childhood, whereas Alfred Brendel (even more talented) didn't even take piano seriously until he was in his twenties.

I think it's just a different way of learning. My two are constantly asking me about pieces of classical music. they hum them, I tell them the name, they track them down online and download them. Or they come up and ask me what big words are "epiphany" recently, or look them up in the dictionary. Nine times out of ten all this new info is stuff that came up on The Simpsons.

I think parenting is a learning process and all parents want the best for their children. I don't think those tiger mums push kids that bad in a way. it is a tv show and likely there are more stories are not edited to show the full pictures. Those mums love their children unconditionally no doubt and they only try to help them reaching their potential so they can have better choices when they grow up. let's face it, there are lots of competitions in this world. A bit pressure and disciplines are not wrong. While some parents wonder why to push this hard if they aren't necessary to achieve excellent in the end ie become a professional violinist, but it is important to recognise the process is important too. Maybe after all those pushing, they won't become what we hope for but in the end, we can proudly say we are doing the best we can. I think I am a tiger mum and it's in my blood (from Taiwan). nothing wrong about it

I do think I have some tiger mum qualities in me, but I don't think that's such a bad thing. I've read Amy Chua's book and watched the documentary and do feel a sense of admiration for the hard work these mothers and children put in.

Dd and ds learn the violin by suzuki method and attend a school with majority chinese children. Dd (8) now practises an hour each day and is progressing well. It is obvious that the chinese children practise for longer as they tend to fly past the other children. We have to work hard each day to keep up, but I believe we are doing the right thing in helping our children to achieve.

Aside from the music practise my children do their school work and reading, but I certainly don't push it. Once they've done a full day at school, relaxed, eaten and music practise there isn't much time for anything else.