Meet Britain's Chinese Tiger Mums BBC 2 Now!

[sailorsgal]

I think I'm going to feel like a bad mother.

Fellatio.Yes,its funny how the Chinese agree kids are a blank canvas.I don't agree at all.One of my 4 is very musical and a brilliant natural dancer.No one has ever taught, him he was just born with the ability.My other son cannot dance at all.I do agree that early learning can help kids though.My eldest studied mandarin virtually every day in her hk school.She hated it and was very bad at it [she was put in the mixed race class and we did not speak it at home] and fell massively behind.However now back in the uk she has picked up french very quickly and loves it [likewise my younger ones who went to a bilingual nursery in hk].I think there is value in early learning [but i used to hate seeing tiny kids playing kumon violin in displays in hk!]
I have also picked up some 'chinese' habits.Two of my dc's are tutored [one is 7!].I agree that state schools don't push kids [my 12 year old has very little homework] and have asked the tutor to set her some [she is in the top groups in a good state school].I also encourage my kids in practising the piano [but not to the extent of making them cry].I bribe them -stick and carrot!.

I didn't think this was too car crash at all. I quite liked all the mothers on the programme. They obviously adored their children and wanted what was best for them, they spent a lot of time with them and talked to them and that imvho is what shapes a child most. They could, also, to a certain extent, laugh at themselves. I also think in my neck of the woods (W London) there are just as many mothers of all races behaving in exactly the same way - especially when it comes to grammar school and private school entrance exams.

according to my student friend, who studies with a lot of Chinese students - a C grade is know as an 'Asian F' !

And I'm afraid FellatioNelson's, or rather her sons, observations on Chinese/HK students only proves the point I have been making.

Yes, we people of Chinese ethnicity have zero personality - after all we aren't fully human (as Morrissey would point out), we are merely learning machines with absolutely no sense of enjoyment of life etc.etc.etc. No wonder we all look alike!

I obviously don't know the precise details of the students which Fellatio describes. However I have some experience of meeting students from China/HK in universities. Many are quite shy, but will respond to kindness. Perhaps if some British students tried to get to know them, they might find a few traces of personality present.

Not a coincidence at all, Frank - rather, entirely understandable that viewers who are not of Chinese ethnicity would mostly identify with the British father whose attitude to parenting is closer to what 'we' recognise!

Must say this comes across as a very raw subject for you - yes, I'd be interested to hear more of your background/circumstances if you're happy to share :)

I think that's a bit unfair on Fell, Frank.

People stating their own experience doesn't make them racist. There are Chinese children boarding at my dc's school, and they too study extremely hard and only talk to each other. There is no judgment involved in this, it is just how it is. My ds has two girls in his math class that he sits next to and talks to, but they are very very shy and scream with laughter and then talk to each other in whispers. Perhaps in time the boundaries will break down.

FrankH, this is the latest style of TV documentary unfortunately. There was a recent prgramme about Jewish culture and life and as a Jewish woman I cringed whilst watching it.

At least this programme was spared a disparaging voiceover which has also become obligatory.

Yes, but Hully, programmes such as these hardly help to pull down boundaries (even if they don't nec. create them). For example, before Frank pointed it out, I hadn't thought about how the only 'decent' (or make that 'normal') person on there was the white dad. The other dad seemed like a sap, and the husband of the piano-pushed kid was absent.
Having said that, I think any normal viewer would realise this was a stereotype and a programme showing a certain way of parenting. Not jump to the conclusion that all Chinese parents are like this. I mean, that's telly innit.

It's a hard one. It was made on the back of the Tiger Mother book and attendant media blah de blah and was obviously sold on that basis, so it had to be about that particular type. It would be a bit odd if it was called Tiger Mothers and was about Pinot Grigio chugging Asian mothers who said, "Oh don't worry about homework darling, go on your x-box like a normal English child" wouldn't it?!

Hullygully I'm not accusing Fellatio of racism. I'm commenting on the way she and her sons have described their Chinese/HK classmates.

Yes there are boundaries which are not easy to break down. But that shouldn't necessarily lead to the assumption that these Chinese students have "zero personality". Perhaps they do, but sometimes give them the benefit of the doubt.

(Incidentally, in case anyone is wondering, I am quite aware of what the word "Fellatio" means - we aren't all naive geeks with no knowledge of life - well, I might be, but not that naive)

BigFatSpider Yes, I admit it's something about which I might be being over-sensitive, but perhaps a few of the other posts on this thread might slightly excuse this, given that it's the sort of thing I've come across over and over again in my long experience of life (over 63 years) in this country.

I'll take up your kind invitation to describe my background later on when I have more time to post. It's quite a long story.

Exactly, H. Anyone knew what to expect before turning on. That's why I don't watch much tv. Load of old tosh. Hang on, that's another thread, isn't it.

Sorry, by H, I meant Hully. Slow typer.

I didn't think they came across particularly badly, really?

The banker mum with the older dc was a bit driven and scary (and interesting that there was no dh around, as far as we could see), but the other two women seemed to strike a reasonable balance between being ambitious for the dc but obviously also having chosen to be with quite laid-back blokes. They were quite insightful into their own issues as well, i thought, again with the more affluent mum a bit more rigid and humourless about it.

Matthew's timetable was rather mad, but his mum did seem to balance it out with her more humourous side. I got the impression she wasn't nearly as rigid as she seemed at first sight.

I don't think anyone was wondering whether or not you knew what fellatio was, Frank...

Moving on, I do see your point, of course, but I wonder what you think the answer might be?

vjg13 Yes, stereotyping of other "races" is not confined to British stereotyping of Chinese. Indeed there is stereotyping of British people in other cultures - however most of that is actually distinctly favourable towards the British, and deservedly so :).

I wonder how many people of Romany ethnicity have been annoyed by all the "Big fat Gypsy" stuff!

Didn't see all the programme but if we had the time/money/drive then I'm sure we'd try and push for our children to succeed. There still have to be plumbers/bricklayers/radiographers/air-traffic-control operators tho. Not everyone can be a tri-lingual Head of Trading for the Bank of Wherever

Frank, Frank, Frank - NO NO NO - distinctly favourable BECAUSE we're in Britain. Go abroad and you'll get a different take and the home culture will think itself the best and the poor old English as bad-dressers, poor-cooks and a bit odd.

Hell, go to Scotland or Wales and you'll hear bad stuff against the English. Humans are just odd, eh.

zumm Actually the image of GB is still very good in many countries. In China, British culture and products are very fashionable among the young middle-class people. Similarly in India. Programmes such as Downton Abbey are very popular abroad.

In the USA, speaking with an English accent immediately makes a favourable impression. I have personal experience of this, as has my niece, now married to an American and living there.

As for Wales and Scotland, they're Celts, supposedly, so they must be superior!

Well Frank the impression of GB is not great in many other countries. You should hear what myFrench friends think of some (which generalises into all) English people/food/customs/dress.

What impression would you like to be out there about the Chinese Frank? What do you think is the correct one?

I think the Chinese mothers were great and I actually think Juliette has the worst prospects of all because once she gets a bit older laid-back geordie dad will always side with her when she will not want to do work.

As for FNelson's description of Chinese students: FNelson, please don't euphemise binge drinking to the extent of passing out in the street and having alcohol-related liver disease by age 25 as "partying"; practical jokes ending up in criminal damage and A&E as "larks" etc. And as for a culture that is able to produce uni students who instead of all this study - Britain should all learn from that culture.

Yes AllieZ I thought that despite the 'extreme' parenting methods, the mothers came across as loving mothers first and foremost. :)

Yes Alliez, I absolutely agree with you, and I did type a very long post in reply to Frank, saying that most of the students I am talking about probably go home with tales of how British kids are lazy, loud, thick, lacking in self-discipline, and spend their whole lives drunk, watching trash on
TV, or sleeping around. But of course that would be a negative stereotype and a crass generalisation, albeit true for an embarrassingly large chunk of British young people, from a foreigner's perspective.

I did make all sorts of other observations as well, about the cultural differences in parenting/education, and the possible reasons for them, and the benefits and drawbacks of both styles, but I deleted the whole thing. I get so weary of not being able to freely explore these things without something I say getting misconstrued as racism, and Frank was starting to sound a tad chippy, what with the 'no wonder they all look the same' comment. I just don't have the energy or the inclination for it today!

The documentary did feed into some of the China-hype that's so prevalent at the moment: 'oh look at the Chinese, never noticed them before, look at how they're taking over the world there with their Kumon maths and violin lessons and 5 hours of homework'. China's been around for 5,000 years but somehow Western documentary makers are only noticing it now... there is too much hype about how different and strange China is.

IME, all cultures value education and hard work and tradition so Chinese culture is no different in that regard. All that's different is that China is a large country, a competitive economy with no safety net and also Chinese people living in the West are influenced heavily by the immigrant experience, which is usually one of hard graft. I watched a Storyville documentary by a Chinese film-maker about children in a Chinese school and the parents were perfectly normal, more relaxed and not a tiger mom in sight. In fact the children featured were quite indulged, as they were only children. They did work hard at school, of course, and had a lot of homework but were allowed to play as well and socialise. It wasn't as extreme as the 'tiger mom' stereotype.

50 years ago, a documentary about British kids at a public school would have shown them being forced to play rugby in the pouring rain, studying Latin and Greek for hours and following military-style discipline as they were toughened up for life. The only reason 'the West' is different now is because of the liberalism that developed after the 1960s. People are the same everywhere with the same goals for their children, I think, although they may have different ways of achieving those goals.