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Meet Britain's Chinese Tiger Mums BBC 2 Now!

222 replies

sailorsgal · 05/01/2012 21:02

I think I'm going to feel like a bad mother.

OP posts:
Pocksrule · 06/01/2012 22:08

Sorry but I disagree with much of this. A lot of research has demonstrated the importance of non-structured play for young kids, and I personally believe for older kids too, and with this tiger nonsense there is no time left to allow children space for reflective and imaginative play.

Life is about living, I don't see a rounded and rich experience in this. I come from a very academic, very clever family, some of whom have been successful according to the definitions of tigers. But having witnessed their successes my ambition for my children is that they lead a life that is content. What exactly is a good and successful life? Who is to say that those who practise the so-called lesser professions of plumbing, farming etc consider their existence to be less than a cambridge graduate fat cat. I has all the trappings of it. Frankly I think it is disgusting.

angel1976 · 06/01/2012 22:18

Pocksrule No one here has said that an academic is worth more than a plumber... Hmm Also, in the documentary, you are seeing a very narrow aspect of these families' lives, who says they don't have fun or have 'unstructured' play out of their schedule?

When I was growing up, I was expected to do my homework and practise the piano for a certain amount of time each day, the rest of the time, my cousins and I ran wild and boy, did we have fun! Fun that kids today can't have cos there is no way parents will allow a large group of fairly young children disappear for hours into the local 'woods' with unfenced ponds etc.

I believe in education. I think education gives you freedom. Going to university taught me a lot of life skills and once I had my degrees under my belt, I felt I could go out and do what I wanted. I don't have to prove myself anymore. I am quite happy for my kids to become a plumber or a roofer if that's what they choose to be but if they are clever enough, I would like them to go to university first, do some studying, learn some disciplines, absorb some knowledge, enjoy being a young person, travel and experience life before they decide what they want to do for the rest of their lives.

mathanxiety · 06/01/2012 22:20

Easy to say for you perhaps, but my mother's family would all have had to take the boat to America or Australia if Granny and Grandad hadn't been an early Irish version of tiger parents and sacrificed to send them to school (grandad made it to age 14 before he had to leave to work) and then on to college and in the case of some, all the way to PhDs.

There is a certain amount of contentment to be had knowing your children are not going to be packing all they have in a little suitcase and facing a lifetime of minimum wage labour in some hot foreign place, and for the children, my aunts and uncles, much contentment in seeing their offspring make it to the Ivy League, Oxbridge, great jobs, ability to afford nice holidays (grandad never had a holiday in his entire life and my uncle who inherited the farm didn't either; his first foray into a scenic part of the next county blew his mind but he put 6 children through university) and also the opportunity to use their many gifts and talents in charitable endeavours, helping the disadvantaged and disabled.

mumoftwolilboys · 06/01/2012 22:22

Feel so guilty now watching this as I am chinese and have DS1 3.5 who keeps asking me to go for all sorts of lessons(ice-skating, violin, piano, horse riding etc.). But I've decided to be laid back just as my parents had been with me and haven't really done much for him, I keep thinking he's WAY too young. He goes for swimming(he asked for around 6 months and we gave in) and will be starting ballet soon (once again DS1 has been pestering for months) but nothing else. I know many white mums who send their kids for many more lessons. He was at an independent school so he's actually been asking to go for french and chinese lessons but I haven't done anything about that, thinking he's too little and he should be playing instead of going for lessons. Perhaps I'm going too far the other way not wanting him to do anything too much. Watching this been been sort of a wake up call for me, if these parents can push their kids so hard, and it's really not a bad thing, the least I could do is put some effort into letting my DS1 learn what he so wants to. Sorry perhaps I've completely missed the point of the programme but glad I've seen this post anyway as I missed this programme yesterday.

FrankH · 06/01/2012 22:22

Hullygully The only impression I would like to be "out there" about the Chinese is that we are fully human, with personality, virtues, vices etc.etc. which will differ from individual to individual, just as with white British people, or any other people.

FellatioNelson I never accused you of racism, but I have to admit that your (or your sons) "zero personality" jibe rankled somewhat - and could be construed as being so, especially as its the sort of thing I've seen said about Chinese (and other East Asians0 over and over again.

I am sorry you are feeling so weary of not being able to freely explore these matters, as the last thing I would want is for people not being able to express what they feel - including what they feel about Chinese. But then I would also want to be able to reply to what I see as an unfair statement, without being dismissed as being a "tad chippy".

Well perhaps I am - but I've got rather weary too. I'm weary of feeling I ought to reply to all the ignorant and denigatory remarks about Chinese (as an ethnicity) which I find on so many of the forums I read. Actually I'm so weary that I've mostly given up trying.

If it was just about myself, I wouldn't even bother. But I am concerned about the future of my nieces, half Chinese and half white, and what prejudice they might have to endure in their lives ahead.

Pocksrule · 06/01/2012 22:35

My grandpa worked in a sweat shop, and indeed did minimum wage in a hot country too. That has no relation to the point I am trying to make. Sorry but kids who go to school then come home to 3 to 5 hours work on top have no time for anything else. And I am commenting on the programme before I get jumped on. And I do believe there is an inference that such jobs are less than.

I just don't see why becoming the best academically is the measure of success. Why does it have to be the best. Some people thrive on trying to attain the nobel prize etc but not many. Many who operate at that level are not actually happy and end up feeling like failures. I think there is a great wide line between minimum wage in a hot, foreign place and scoring a first at Oxbridge and you can find a great place on that line without such intense pressure. You can have a great education without going overboard and education never ends. I intend to learn piano when I have a bit more time. The fact that I have left it too late to become a concert pianist is neither here nor there, I will still enjoy it.

FrankH · 06/01/2012 22:53

Hullygully You also asked what I thought "the answer might be".

I'm afraid there is no easy answer. I am pessimistic on this point as history shows, over and over again, that it is far easier to stir up prejudice and hatred than to bring about understanding and reconciliation. Northern Ireland and South Africa are cases in point - things may have got better, but anyone who imagines that old hatreds and prejudices aren't still bubbling away are naive in the extreme.

All I think we can realistically hope for is that responsible authors, film producers, directors etc. who deal in the field of real or perceived ethnic differences, take some care to see that their products will create more light and less heat. I am not sure that those involved in "Tiger Mothers" had this as an objective.

Pocksrule · 06/01/2012 22:59

FrankH you are totally right. Feeding into stereotypes keeps below the surface resentments simmering, creates normality around negative associations and causes more damge than people give credit. Like you say you need only delve slightly into history to see the truth in this

JumpinJellyBeansOnToast · 06/01/2012 23:00

pocksrule the emphasis on academics because Confucianism places a big emphasis on scholastic ability. Education is probably next in terms of importance after filial piety. I don't think all these tiger mums are actually expecting their child to get a first from Oxbridge, but a tiger mum will never say that to their child before uni applications. It is the belief that if you aim for it, and work towards it, you can achieve it that they are trying to instill. And the process of working and being willing to put in the graft that matters.

Pocksrule · 06/01/2012 23:06

I know jellybeans I just don't agree with such values and the pressure it places upon a person. I don't agree with that level of graft at young ages and I don't believe that graft alone will necessarily lead to it. This then sets up someone for potentially a terrible fall. I also don't believe the end prize is worth all this.

FrankH · 06/01/2012 23:07

BigFatSpider I was going to answer your request to give my story, to explain why I might be over-sensitive about the largely negative view of Chinese people which I think still exists in a significant minority of the British population - and which minority I fear will grow, as China is perceived as a greater threat to the West.

However I realise that a list of experiences of racism over 63 years will end up sounding like a monotonous whining complaint. So I won't do this and say that in spite of these, my experiences of this country and its people have been overwhelmingly positive. The great majority of my friends have been and are white British, and I wouldn't wish that any different. I still believe that on average the people of this country, of all "colours", are among the kindest and most generous in the world. I only hope this remains the case in the possibly troubled years ahead.

MITmum · 06/01/2012 23:17

Pocksrule. There is no right or wrong way to educate children. The programme doesn?t try to show the best academically is the measure of success. i remember Sally expressed that having a good education is to ensure Matthew will have more choices and options in the future. Who are we to say tiger mum's way is wrong. Everyone is different. Every child is different. Some kids have more self-discipline and some do need some pushing. My parents were pushing (10 times worse), I didn?t rebel it and I love them dearly ? I actually thank them for it.

Yes life is about living, but learning is also fun. Who say they hate it? The boy wants to become a professional pianist like his idol, then his mother only helps him to achieve it with long hours of practicing. Matthew wants to become a dentist like his godfather so he will have money to buy lots of nice cars when he grows up, then he needs to study hard for it.

Like racingheart stated, You really don't have to be Chinese to be a Tiger mum. There are many mums like that already!.

JumpinJellyBeansOnToast · 06/01/2012 23:23

It is interesting that you said that. I went to a school with a very large proportion of Chinese students. Discipline with regards to homework and music from an early age was the norm, regardless of how tiger motherish mum was. When it came to our teenage years, these same children will easily structure their own learning and revision without supervisionr

FrankH · 06/01/2012 23:24

There may be an unfortunate spin-off for education in this country in all this.

Some posters have remarked on the similarity between Matthew's timetable and that which ruled in many British schools, especially boarding schools, in this country until quite recently. Having gone to such schools, I agree. There was a marked similarity - right down to the set times for physical exercise.

Michael Gove, our present Education minister, is someone whose statements and writings I have noted quite frequently. Some comments of his on a Chinese artist in the BBC2 programme "Newsnight Review", among others, confirmed an impression that he doesn't like Chinese people and has a low opinion of them. This dislike may or may not be "racist".

In any case, he is now using the "Chinese" as bogeymen in order to push through his changes in our education system. The nightmare he presents is your nice British children ending up having to work for "Harvard trained Chinese businessmen". I suspect he will try to introduce more of the timetables of the Matthew/British boarding school ethos into our education system so we can beat the dastardly Chinese at their own game!

FrankH · 06/01/2012 23:26

Actually, the spin-off might be fortunate or unfortunate - depending on your view as to what "Education" should be mainly about.

Pocksrule · 06/01/2012 23:29

I am sure I stated elsewhere that I believe tigering is done by many different people. I dislike the principles not an entire nation who, as frankh, so rightly said are not the only ones to do this. Obviously we all have our own ideas as to the right and wrong ways to educate. I, for one am relived that some of those methods adopted in the fifties no longer are in use.

I also believe little kids reflect back their parents' desires especially so young. Young kids often want to do what they think their parents want. I think there are a very small number of children that may benefit from such extreme pushing but I find it extreme and don't like or approve just as I am sure they wouldn't approve of what I do. I am expressing my opinion on the subject. I don't like it and explained why I don't like it.

And it is not just about fun, as I said I believe (note I said I believe not you must) that kids need sufficient time to reflect, indulge in nonsense and imaginative play or simply to be bored. This style does not imo leave enough mental head space or time for that. I remember studying for my exams and going to bed with my head swimming in mathematical equations, facts, theories but I was significanty older.

I actually fully believe in education to a certain standard but I believe it should be taught in an appropriate manner.

None of what I say is about Chinese people. The documentary focused on them but I have met people like that from all nationalities. It is the pushiness at such young ages that I hate.

JumpinJellyBeansOnToast · 06/01/2012 23:43

Sorry pocksrule, my post was meant to be considerably longer but posted too soon whilst trying to wipe crumbs off my iPad Blush. I get what you are saying, and the Chinese mums from my school certainly weren't unique in their style of parenting, as all the other mums were pretty much the same!
I found the programme funny though, as I identified with some of it. And also a bit sad for the mums because all people will see from the outside is how they push their children and judge them for it. There is a lot of love and sacrifice there too.

teta · 07/01/2012 00:15

Frankh i think a change in the educational system in the uk can only be a good thing.Don't you think many uk workers will end up working for chinese business men? [whether harvard educated or not].China is one of a few rapidly growing countries along with India[my dh having always worked for western companies is now working for a chinese one].I think you are very sensitive about any real or perceived bias here.i am sure you have had a lot of racism in the past -my dc's [chinese mixed] have had absolutely none.Though they do perceive themselves as being British,even though 3 were born in hk.I think the British are fairly welcoming to different nationalities as long as they behave and act in a similar manner to people in the uk.If they don't then there is a huge potential for misunderstanding.

southeastastra · 07/01/2012 00:19

we need to take a step back with parenting and let our children explore what they want to do from a young age

FrankH · 07/01/2012 00:26

teta I am sure Michael Gove doesn't think that British people working for Chinese is a good idea! Why else would he use this, for him, ghastly prospect as an excuse to push forward his educational reforms, in order to avert such a situation?

Whether or not the changes in the educational system he is pushing through are a good or a bad thing, is a matter of opinion. I suspect that there will be a few good ideas buried amongst a host of bad and irrelevant ones.

RealLifeIsForWimps · 07/01/2012 00:53

I think maybe the British and Chinese (as observed in HK- can't comment on mainland China as no direct experience) are two extremes, and neither is perfect

  • HK Chinese= very good basic hard skills such as numeracy, literacy and proficiency in English, even amongst people who leave school at minimum age, but not much attention to blue sky thinking/creative thought and a lot of focus on rote learning.
  • English- poor levels of literacy and numeracy in a large swathe of the population (University graduates write "I could of" and routinely confuse they're, their and there) but lots of focus on getting children to think for themselves.

Both have advantages and disadvantages. Business leaders constantly reiterate the fact that the British workforce needs better basic skills and a better work ethic. What's the point in having great ideas if you can't articulate them? On the other hand, having good basic skills but little ability to think outside the box is also limiting.

However, I think the Chinese system is easier to fix than the British system.

Quattrocento · 07/01/2012 01:04

I'm a bit of tiger

I don't think it does anyone any good in the long term to applaud a child who is perfectly capable of getting A's when they get a B.

It just means they haven't tried, no?

Fair enough, if the child is doing the best they can, then applaud.

I love the two grade system - effort and attainment. If the effort grade is A, I don't quibble. If the effort grade is B and the attainment grade is A, I don't quibble. But woe betide my children if the effort grade is B and the attainment grade is B ...

funnyperson · 07/01/2012 04:32

The concept of the tiger mum, rather like the concept of the helicopter mum is too extreme, and so the problem is that it can be used to ridicule perfectly normal caring parents who encourage and take an interest in their children.

I particularly don't like it because it has racist connotations. For too long there has been a very racist stereotype of the narrow minded unimaginative hardworking high achieving Chinese or East Asian person who is told he/she cannot think outside the box and therefore isn't quite as good as the other person who works less and achieves less but is of a different race. I am not Chinese btw. But I do think this tiger mum concept is an extension of that racism.

TV programmes such as the one referred to are an example of the worst kind of biased journalism.

FellatioNelson · 07/01/2012 07:03

Frank. My children have not been brought up to be prejudiced, and neither was I. Quite the opposite. I was talking about their independent (yet identical) observations of a group of students they rubbed shoulders with, in two different establishments, having barely met or mixed with a Chinese person before, in their lives.

They also mix with students of many other nationalities and ethnicities, (especially now as we live in the Middle East where there are huge amounts of expats from all over the world, the minority are white, and there is barely a white/European child amongst any of their friends) and they do not appear to have made any 'blanket' observations about their behaviours that I am aware of.

We know very well, thank you, that whatever people's colour, religion, ethnicity or culture, they are all 'fully human' as you put it, with the full range of personalities, foibles and emotions.

The point is, I was not referring to Chinese people as one homogenous group. I was not referring to my opinion/impression of Chinese people as one homogenous group. I was referring to my children's observations/impressions of two very tiny, (and for all I know, quite possibly non-representative) groups, and it was in the context of a discussion about an emerging trend for Tiger Mothering, which seems to be not exclusively, but predominantly a Chinese thing. If those observations touched a raw nerve for you because they happened to concur with things you have heard before that make you feel defensive and uncomfortable then I don't really know what I can say about that. Confused

I'm quite sure they have wonderful personalities, but my children never get the chance to see them because they choose not to mix or to join social activities in the halls of residence/boarding houses, and they stay in their rooms studying pretty much all of the time.

All the while you wish to assume that that is somehow because of a fault, or a lack of effort, or a demonstration of ingrained xenophobia/predudice on the part of my children, I really don't see what I can say to convince you otherwise.

It is interesting that in defence of the Chinese students, Alliez made this comment:

'FNelson, please don't euphemise binge drinking to the extent of passing out in the street and having alcohol-related liver disease by age 25 as "partying"; practical jokes ending up in criminal damage and A&E as "larks" etc. And as for a culture that is able to produce uni students who instead of all this study -Britain should all learn from that culture.'

Now I don't disagree with any of that - she has a point, and it's a point I made myself, before I deleted my long post. It rings true (sadly) for too many British young people, and now I live somewhere where alcohol is not freely available and where public raucousness is not accepted, I can agree that we DO have a great deal to learn from other cultures. However, if I were wanting to get all huffy and offended about sweeping generalisations and 'negative stereotyping' of my culture, and wild derogatory assumptions being made about my children, and about how I was accused of 'euphemising' to gloss over the slack and anti-social behaviour they OBVIOUSLY must indulge in by dint of being British and white, then I could find a great deal to be offended by in what she said.

People (often, and in general) display common cultural traits. good, bad, indifferent and just plain bewildering, depending on which other culture is observing. It's a fact. Cultural traits are not ethnic traits. I'm not sure that ethnic traits actually exist, but obviously there will be some sort of unavoidable crossover between culture and ethnicity, and surely you are over-thinking things and developing a persecution complex if you cannot tell the difference between a discussion on common cultural traits and thinly veiled derogatory stereotyping of a whole ethnicity? Although I wonder sometimes....hence why I find these discussions wearisome and depressingly predictable, like walking through a minefield filled with booby-traps designed to expose me as a Bad Person for saying what I see.

The phrase trotted out regularly on MN: 'even a positive sterotype is still a stereotype'. Well, yes, but how the hell are you ever to explore the human race at all, and to learn from one another, if you are in such fear of recognising patterns in cultural behaviours, but dare not day it for fear saying the wrong thing? As a white British person I have to live with the fact that globally speaking, I am seen as fat, lazy, entitled, tattooed, promiscuous, a football thug or a Political bully and all-round Busybody. Or failing that, I am a horsey, chinless braying twit. I am none of those things actually (ok, I am a bit fat) and neither are the vast majority of the people I know, but there is not a damn thing I can do about it because IT IS WHAT THE REST OF THE WORLD SEES. So I must take it on the chin.

By the way, I am aware that in China it is common to refer to white Westerners as Big Noses. I'd like it on record that my nose is really rather small, with no discernable bridge. However, I do accept that as we probably all look the same to the Chinese, we are an ethnicity who in general terms are all in possession of Huge Hooters. I could go on a one-woman crusade to convince them otherwise, but while they look around and see many of us sporting massive beaky konks which to their eyes seem alien and unwieldy, then I must accept that they see what they see, and make their own conclusions - as they are perfectly entitled to do.

FellatioNelson · 07/01/2012 07:18

And one more thing Frank

Your very first post said this:

'I am of Chinese ethnicity, and to some extent, not as much as the mums on the programme, my parents were stricter than average.

However I thought the programme was very unfair, as it seems to have deliberately chosen three rather extreme examples, and then only show some parts of their lives. I'm afraid that it can only encourage dislike of Chinese people as a whole.'

You see, this is where you are over-thinking it. the programme was not about the Chinese. It was not even about chinese mothers. It was about Tiger Mothers, most of whom happen to be Chinese. And believe it or not, we are (mostly) intelligent enough to grasp this fact.

There is a programme on soon called 'Toddlers and Tiaras' It is about American mothers who enter their tiny daughters into hideous beauty pageants, where they are encouraged to flaunt their midriffs and gyrate like pole-dancers at four years old - almost the polar-opposite in every way of the Tiger Mother programme.

Would you say that that programme will encourage dislike of Americans as a whole? Are you as a British/Chinese observer, likely come away 'disliking American people more as whole' because of it?