Meet Britain's Chinese Tiger Mums BBC 2 Now!

[sailorsgal]

I think I'm going to feel like a bad mother.

We are threatened by the Chinese in the west as they are a race of diligent, high-achieving people. We should feel threatened too when so many of our kids are neets. To a certain extent I can see where Amy is coming from although I think she should be pushing gymnastics sport as well as music for the health and fitness of her children.

The sporty kids at school were always the most confident and popular and it dosn't have to be at the expense of academia. I did not agree with her putting her dd on the doorstep at the age of 3 for not doing her piano scales. I think thta is very neurotic and hysterical imo. Amy Chua must be exhausted!

I agree with racing heart. We have a few tiger mums at school and as impressive as their dc's academic and musical achievements are they invariably say they want to be accountants , dentists or lawyers when asked what they want to do when they grow up. These dc are 6 years old! Now I know this is probably what they've been told the should do by their parents but I do think childhood is a time where dreams and imagination shouldn't be restricted. On the other hand I also appreciate that some of Tiger mums' techniques are worth adopting. Rote learning and continual practise is for somethings are absolutely essential. My dc 's maths, spelling, punctuation and grammar improved dramatically when i did this with them for 2 weeks over the summer holidays .
I must admit I found the Tiger mums (Vivian + Sally's) dc's routine absolutely exhausting and their dc seemed incredibly docile. If ds had to do even half of Matthew's schedule he'd explode!

Everything Fell said

But understand why Frank feels as he does too

Hully get those fence splinters out of our arse.

"We are threatened by the Chinese in the west as they are a race of diligent, high-achieving people." They are not high achieving people!! Read some more insightful articles about China and it's culture. Perhaps there are elements of brilliance in China, but no moreso than here. You can get an English degree in China without ever uttering a word of it aloud. Children spend long days in classrooms and still do not have an inch of critical thinking, there is no thinking outside the box in China, well not in it's culture and control. A great piece in The WallSt. Journal talked about USA and China having the same degrees of both arrogance and ignorance, I am inclined to agree. It's astounding how little the Chinese know of the outside world.

China is a frightening place because of it's lack of humanity and control....it is definitely a country to be feared.

My dd became good friends with a Chinese girl when she started in year 7, but within a year she just couldn't stay friends with her because her social skills were so hard to handle. If dd got a better mark than her friend the friend wouldn't speak to her, but if she did better she'd spend all day boasting and giving advice on how to do as well. She was like this with all the class and eventually they all gradually distanced themselves. We also found her hard to be around as she had a very rude attitude to us as parents. Dd said that at home her mother was just like these tiger mothers and this girl had been told since ks2 what her job was going to be and what subjects to concentrate on.

I realise she could be a one off, but it's very sad to see at 13 she has no friends and doesn't know why.

FellatioNelson I am quite aware of all the points you are making. I'm afraid it was the "zero personality" jibe which got me going - yes, precisely because I've heard it so many times before. And my "fully human" was not aimed at you! I have too often come across people talking in terms which suggest that Chinese, as an ethnicity, aren't really as human as whites. Witness the popular rock singer Morrissey, for one.

As I said before, I am not going to list the negative experiences of racism I've come across in this country, because I prefer mostly to concentrate on the positive. If I did list these it would be quite wearying, but just perhaps you might slightly forgive me for my over-sensitivity.

funnyperson Many thanks for concisely summarizing what I, and not a few others, find worrying about the reaction of some to this sort of programme.

There is an element of rote learning and sheer hard work to anything very difficult to achieve. Often I find it interesting if you look at the very difficult life of great composers for example, they had exceptional technical training (look at Mozart and Beethoven or Chopin) and had unique experiences that cultivated this - Beethoven had an alcoholic father who had his own ambitions to be a great musician / composer and Beethoven used to play music for to placate him. Chopin suffered a great deal of illness as a child, which kept him isolated but also meant he honed fantastic musical skills. Somehow these people made amazing music, which have benefited humanity but I often think they could not have done it without their technical skill and in a way their difficult early experiences played a huge part in this.

I think the TV show did feed into stereotypes. I am sure it was edited carefully to demonstrate this as that made it compelling viewing.

In some ways I think these parents are genuinely doing the best they can, within their own constructs of themselves. No one is perfect. Perhaps the relaxed Geordie guy was the perfect antidote to his ambitious wife. We don't know. I worry about the lack of social input for my child, I am not from the UK, my DH and I work full time - we don't have any other support and it is therefore quite hard to organise play dates. I would hope that the Chinese language school would also offer some social contact for the children who attend. I worried about how some of the mothers ensured their children were integrated into British society. However, this week with the conviction of those two horrors in the Stephen Lawrence case has really made me question just how divided society in London can be and made me question how integrated into society me and my family here are. The Stephen Lawrence case really upset me but it made me realise that I have been in the UK for nearly a decade and it has made me want to contribute more to society. I think the Lawrence family are amazing and really inspirational.

I'm so uncomfortable with assigning characteristics to people based on ethnicity.

I mean I too will take my child to amazing musical events and I think I will ensure my child learns a musical instrument and only once they have reached a certain standard will they choose to drop it or keep going. So there are elements which I think are positive but I think the TV show was very stark in what it chose to show.

NotMostPeople I'm really uncomfortable with your post. 13 is too young to be written off as having no friends. I had someone in my class when I was young and around 13 years of age, who sounded similar to the person you describe but they had come from a war torn country - my parents to their credit - really spent time with me and kind of made it known to me that I would have to try harder and help this child socially and try imagine myself in their shoes. It was a good lesson for me. I was a popular child, and I recognised that I could make her life easier.

FellatioNelson Yes, you may be intelligent enough to see that the programme actually wasn't actually about Chinese as a whole - but I'm afraid that many, even those actually intelligent to know the difference, will still use this sort of thing to further the negative stereotypes about Chinese as a "race" which still abound this country.

As for the programme about 'Toddlers and Tiaras', there is of course a danger that it could stereotype these mums as typical of all American mums. However there is a difference here. Most of the anti-Chinese stereotyping in this country is at least partly based on the idea that Chinese people are genetically different and inferior. Such clearly doesn't apply to white Americans, at least on the part of the great majority of Britons, who are white.

Personally, it doesn't alter in any way my attitude to white Americans as a whole, which is entirely favourable, as I don't believe whites (or anyone else) are genetically inferior!

Posie, i think that's completely unfair, bordering on ignorance. On what basis do you say we lack humanity? How would you feel if the chinese branded the UK as inhumane after seeing news reports of kids getting bottled and their faces stamped on after a boozy Friday night out followed by free & easy sex with multiple women? Would that be fair?

In the UK we have this curious culture where we have this love/hate relationship with success. We point to people like Wayne Rooney, Richard Branson as successful rich people who didn't need a good education. Shortly before vilifying them as greedy tax dodgers who tread on the poor to get where they are. And whilst admiring the lucky 'few' who made it without a good education, we forget the millions who didn't.

A relentless focus on academics is wrong. I have high expectations for my kids but I do spend time focussing on their social skills too. The program showed extreme examples, no doubt edited to show the most entertaining parts.

There were some snippets though in the program which were mentioned but not dwelled upon. Such as we as chinese parents start off with the position that with hard work and the right help, our kids WILL succeed. To us, the thought of going to University is as natural as expecting our child will walk.

I had a conversation with a British friend last week who said she'd be more than happy if her kids came home with C grades at GCSE. Why??? Why???? Why only expect average from your kids? Why not expect the best and help them achieve the best they can???

Funny thing is that after watching this program and discussing it with my OH (who isn't chinese but instead is Eastern European), it appears she's more tiger mum than me. I honestly do think the fact that we both are from countries where there is no real welfare system so you have to rely upon yourself. Jobless = starvation. I guess it's hard to describe to someone how it feels to be hungry if they've never been that.

I don't think that's true at all Frank!

Americans know well that we all think of them as thick religious right wing hicks apart from four people on the East coast...

PosieParker Please try to distinguish between China, a totalitarian dictatorship - which I have very little positive to say about (if I had one wish for a political development it would be for Tibet to be allowed independence) - and the Chinese as a people, many of whom don't support what their government are doing, but are not free to say so. I wonder how many Chinese people you have met and got to know, to be able to make the sort of statements you have made.

NotMostPeople I'm sorry about your dd's experience. Of course there are nasty, unlikeable Chinese people, just as there are in all races. So your dd's unlikeable ex-friend won't be a "one off" - but what would that mean?

If I were to judge all white Britons as being typified by Gary Dobson and David Norris - how fair would that be?

I don't think i've ever heard that Chinese people are inferior.In fact we were brought up to believe that they were very hard workers and to respect that fact.My father had lots of contacts amongst different nationalities in his work and we were brought up to appreciate the differences and enjoy the food of all nationalities.I did however come across some prejudice when i decided to marry one!.
I think Michael Goves comment should really be taken as praise of the chinese achievements in the fields of academia and business.Who cares whether he likes the chinese or not.What he thinks is totally irrelevant.I was amazed at the efficiency in hk and couldn't believe the inefficiency in the uk when i returned home.The uk has lessons to learn from the chinese and the sheer ability to work hard which has been eroded in the uk.

Hullygully I suspect your comment may be tongue-in-cheek. But if not....

Does anyone really believe that being a "thick religious right wing hick" is the result of inferior genes peculiar to Americans? If so, why aren't more white Britons also such?

'I wonder how many Chinese people you have met and got to know, to be able to make the sort of statements you have made.'

Well if you've been living here for 63 years I think Posie might know more Chinese people actually in China than you do Frank.

teta The majority of Britons, of any colour, are among the most tolerant, kind, and generous people on this planet. All things I have written must be taken against that background.

However there is a significant minority - and I have had personal experience of quite a number - who do really believe that all Chinese people are nasty inhumane people who are cruel both to other peoples and to animals, who are totally uncreative, whose intelligence rests entirely in being able to rote learn, who have little or no real personality etc.etc. And they believe this is due to Chinese people being genetically, and thus irremediably, inferior to whites.

At one time, this was a much more widespread view openly held in the West - hence the strong influence of "Yellow Peril" thinking so prevalent in the West during the 19th and early 20th centuries, thinking which still subtly colours some of the attitudes towards Chinese (and Japanese and Koreans) to this day.

[Incidentally - on the cruelty to animals - I find it especially galling that Chinese are so often tarred as a whole with this brush. I hate animal cruelty - I can't now even bear to kill the mice which are invading my house - and have supported WWF most of my adult life. Yet I find Morrissey, on the basis of reports of the ghastly condition of some animals in China, denigrating all Chinese - as a "race"]

FellatioNelson Although I have lived here for over 63 years, I still have many relatives in China and Taiwan, including many who have visited us regularly over the years.

Although I have not returned, my brother and sister have gone to China quite frequently.

I have also met quite a number of students from China through my work of over 15 years in two universities.

I think I have quite a fair experience of Chinese people.

However, if you prefer to believe Posie's very negative view, that's your right. Of course there are some who might fit her stereotypes - but then again I've met not a few who wouldn't.

On what basis do you say we lack humanity?

On the basis that the Chinese harvest organs from criminals, the basis that I frequently saw the disgusting way they treat animals in China and children for that matter.

How many Chinese people have I met?

Enough to think that the broad brush style characteristics that are given to the Chinese by better minds than me. And of course it's not all Chinese people, that would be ridiculous. I spent the last, bar one, eight summers in China and my father lives there. Incidentally he's about to leave my mother and his forty year marriage for a Chinese woman younger than me. This is a common theme for expats in China and it's not because young Chinese women crave the beauty and kindness of a Westerner in his late fifties, it's because money is their goal.

(By the way I am not saying any ethnicity is pre disposed to ANYTHING or characteristic but it's very hard to escape the clutches and control of such an intrusive and powerful dictatorship)

My comment on Morrissey, to be clear, as a result of the reports of cruelty to animals, he described Chinese as a "sub-species".

I don't think that there is any doubt that there are people all over the world who lack humanity, but I think Britain does much better than most countries. China still has dying rooms for little girls, still has a bucket at the side of a woman in labour to drown the baby girl. And all this is due to poverty, but the country's books are balanced, they have enough money to feed the poor. Also they have forced terminations for disability.....

Morrissey is a tit. The way Chinese in China treat animals is horrific, it's hard not to question people's humanity when they take so much pleasure or apathy to being really cruel to animals.

For the record I know some very very lovely Chinese people, both here and in HK/mainland China....but the culture is one that can be described, as any other. That what culture does. And in a country of a billion people there are obviously many many different types of people.

Back to Morrissey's point though, the difference is that what David Norris and Gary dobson did was illegal. Bottling people and stamping on their heads is illegal. Getting drunk and disorderly in public and being anti-social and causing criminal damage is illegal. It is not behaviour that is tolerated, condoned, encouraged or dismissed by the masses as part of their culture.

Talking specifically about Morrisey's issues with the Chinese, we no longer have legal bear baiting or dog-fighting, or fox hunting and we no longer trap animals in traps that break their limbs and cause them to lie for hours/days in pain. We aim for high, humane standards in farming and animal slaughter compared to other parts of the world, and particularly China, and as far as I am aware we have never tortured and skinned cats and dogs alive in the belief that it makes their flesh more tender. It's what he perceives as a collective indifference and acceptance of something utterly abhorrent, and a lack of empathy and compassion.

Empathy and compassion for the defenceless is what puts humans above, and apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, is it not? So if he sees that empathy and compassion lacking in a particular nationality then he will draw his own conclusions about where they fit in that nation fits in human race.

Of course the Chinese are not the only race/nationality who do hideous things that we softy Westerners baulk at - but Morrissey is more concerned with the cats and dogs of China than with the plight of children being religiously sacrificed in West Africa (or even in West London) for example.

I think Morrissey is a bit of an arsehole who delights in being provocative, and I cannot argue with distaste and bewilderment at the Chinese psyche on this matter, even if I cringe at his offensive and unfortunate choice of words. On the other hand if you would like to describe Gary Dobson and David Norris as a subspecies be my guest - I will not be arguing on behalf of all British people.

PosieParker I'm sorry that you have such a negative view of Chinese. There's obviously nothing I can do to change your mind, and as there's nothing I can do to change my belonging to such a disgustingly inhumane "race", we'll just have to agree to disagree!

Incidentally, I have met quite a number of unlikeable Chinese people in my time, as I have numbers of unlikeable white Britons, Indians, Romanians, Swiss, French, Americans etc.etc.etc. Fortunately these have been outnumbered by the larger number of nice people I have met in these and other categories.

And I accept your assurance that you don't believe in a genetic predisposition to all this - but quite a number of those who speak about Chinese - and other peoples - in these sorts of way certainly do believe that.