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Teenagers

Parenting teenagers has its ups and downs. Get advice from Mumsnetters here.

Would you see him as a victim? - Family unreasonable or am I being sensitive?

203 replies

Beachywave · 25/05/2024 17:15

Long story short - my 16yo DS has been charged with supply of class A & class B (county lines situation).

He's in court in two weeks - he's pleading guilty but very clearly has not come about doing this on his own and there has been a situation of exploitation and coercion.

My family (his grandparents, aunts, uncles etc) want nothing to do with him and are treating him like a criminal. (Side note - they all smoke weed & drink alcohol, I do not).

AIBU to think they're all being hypocritical tw*ts and that it's actually extremely damaging to him that he's got no support from the people who are supposed to love him unconditionally?

Or should I accept they have their own opinions and that he has done wrong?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 10:02

hiredandsqueak · 28/05/2024 09:11

You will need to move away to get him out of their clutches. A local boy became enmeshed, he and his family just disappeared, the For Sale sign went up after the house was empty and they had gone. It was a few years before son learned that he was ok, he'd changed his name, grown up, gone to uni and was making his way in life. Talk to your other children's father, your child's best chance is to move far away.

This

WiseKhakiGoose · 28/05/2024 11:05

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 08:34

As I said, I work in prisons and with teens. He has committed a crime with horrendous consequences for victims of the industry. Everyone in prison is a victim in some way. He is no different to hundreds of thousands of others

Out of interest, who do you see the victims in the drug industry? The underage kids who sell the drugs, the adults who own the drug lines or the drug addicts who are the customers?

SheilaWilde · 28/05/2024 11:23

Some of the people blaming Beachywave should think about the fact that this can happen to any of your children. The op's DS is a victim.

County lines is insidious, targeted and relentless. There is no victim profile that 'fits' with the one a lot of Mumsnetters believe. Children from 'nice' homes can and are, targeted in the same way as those whose background and home life may be less 'stable'.

It can start off in a small, seemingly innocuous way. A child will be approached in a 'friendly' manner, outside school, waiting for the bus, playing football in the park and maybe have a chat to establish a connection. They might then 'accidentally' bump into said child again and (having already established the interests of the victim; gaming, trainers, football, mobile phones) say 'hey mate I've got a brand new pair of Nike whatever is 'in'. I ordered them accidentally etc etc, you can have them, free, no charge'. If the victim accepts, the seemingly innocuous and kind 'gift' that's the turning point, they're now 'in'. The victim will them be approached at a later date and, still in a friendly, banter way be asked to do a favour. 'Hey mate, how are the trainers? Great, I'm glad you like them. Could you do me a favour? I just need you to take this (envelope/parcel/money) to x address. It'll only take you 10 minutes and you'd be doing me a massive favour'. Child victim feels they have no choice, they don't know at this point it's (drugs, money etc) and agree.

There are now two things that can be leveraged against the victim and 'debt bonding' begins. You did xyz for me, you can get in a lot of trouble for that, now you need to do xyz again otherwise we'll do xyz (hurt family, tell police (they won't), beat you up etc etc etc). It can spiral quickly and the victim is soon in deeper than they can comprehend. They can't tell anyone (parent, sibling, teacher, police) because of the fear of possible repercussions. They are a victim though and should be treated as such.

The courts will look at the level of 'role' your son played (lesser) alongside the class of drug. Him playing a lesser role, his age and being a victim will be in his favour in terms of sentencing. Your family are being unkind and that must be very hard to bear alongside you supporting your DS as well as keeping life going for your family. In your situation I would write them a letter, explaining how your son is a victim, how you both need support now more than ever.

Hopefully your DS will get a community order. You should not blame yourself or your DS. He most probably will be afraid of all sorts of repuccussions to him/his family if he says anything more than admitting guilt. He will have been 'briefed' on what to do if he gets caught and what will happen if he 'grasses'.

To all of the posters who judge the OP and think it won't happen to their children, it can happen to any child. I suggest you read up on County Lines, signs to look out for and what to do if you suspect your child has become involved. They often do use children from 'nice' families because they'll have more to leverage against.

County Lines is real and scary and you don't have to live in an inner city for it to affect you or your children. Educate your dc on the approaches people take to recruit them. Think about when your DC were little and you knew something was worrying them. They finally tell you that child A at school said if they didn't do x then a monster would break into their home at night and do xyz. County Lines is the real version of that and OP's DS was likely 14/15 when it started. He is a child who's a victim of an over arching criminal and ruthless gang. He and the OP are living the real life version of a monster doing xyz if the OP's DS does/doesnt do xyz.

Beachywave · 28/05/2024 11:46

SheilaWilde · 28/05/2024 11:23

Some of the people blaming Beachywave should think about the fact that this can happen to any of your children. The op's DS is a victim.

County lines is insidious, targeted and relentless. There is no victim profile that 'fits' with the one a lot of Mumsnetters believe. Children from 'nice' homes can and are, targeted in the same way as those whose background and home life may be less 'stable'.

It can start off in a small, seemingly innocuous way. A child will be approached in a 'friendly' manner, outside school, waiting for the bus, playing football in the park and maybe have a chat to establish a connection. They might then 'accidentally' bump into said child again and (having already established the interests of the victim; gaming, trainers, football, mobile phones) say 'hey mate I've got a brand new pair of Nike whatever is 'in'. I ordered them accidentally etc etc, you can have them, free, no charge'. If the victim accepts, the seemingly innocuous and kind 'gift' that's the turning point, they're now 'in'. The victim will them be approached at a later date and, still in a friendly, banter way be asked to do a favour. 'Hey mate, how are the trainers? Great, I'm glad you like them. Could you do me a favour? I just need you to take this (envelope/parcel/money) to x address. It'll only take you 10 minutes and you'd be doing me a massive favour'. Child victim feels they have no choice, they don't know at this point it's (drugs, money etc) and agree.

There are now two things that can be leveraged against the victim and 'debt bonding' begins. You did xyz for me, you can get in a lot of trouble for that, now you need to do xyz again otherwise we'll do xyz (hurt family, tell police (they won't), beat you up etc etc etc). It can spiral quickly and the victim is soon in deeper than they can comprehend. They can't tell anyone (parent, sibling, teacher, police) because of the fear of possible repercussions. They are a victim though and should be treated as such.

The courts will look at the level of 'role' your son played (lesser) alongside the class of drug. Him playing a lesser role, his age and being a victim will be in his favour in terms of sentencing. Your family are being unkind and that must be very hard to bear alongside you supporting your DS as well as keeping life going for your family. In your situation I would write them a letter, explaining how your son is a victim, how you both need support now more than ever.

Hopefully your DS will get a community order. You should not blame yourself or your DS. He most probably will be afraid of all sorts of repuccussions to him/his family if he says anything more than admitting guilt. He will have been 'briefed' on what to do if he gets caught and what will happen if he 'grasses'.

To all of the posters who judge the OP and think it won't happen to their children, it can happen to any child. I suggest you read up on County Lines, signs to look out for and what to do if you suspect your child has become involved. They often do use children from 'nice' families because they'll have more to leverage against.

County Lines is real and scary and you don't have to live in an inner city for it to affect you or your children. Educate your dc on the approaches people take to recruit them. Think about when your DC were little and you knew something was worrying them. They finally tell you that child A at school said if they didn't do x then a monster would break into their home at night and do xyz. County Lines is the real version of that and OP's DS was likely 14/15 when it started. He is a child who's a victim of an over arching criminal and ruthless gang. He and the OP are living the real life version of a monster doing xyz if the OP's DS does/doesnt do xyz.

This whole thing makes me feel so sad. It's completely true and he won't even tell me about the things he's seen or been through.

He's got no previous convictions which obviously made him an easy target but will hopefully go in his favour in court.

I might have to consider moving away but I can't see how losing all of our support network will help, not to mention the fact I'll have to find a new job, and wrap around care and nursery fees will be so much higher with no help. I can't see how putting ourselves on the poverty line will help him. It would only take someone in the new area to approach him and he might think it's an easy way to make money to help me out.

I just think I'm best of staying where I am and keeping a much closer eye on him. He'll be able to get a job next month if he's not in custody as his GCSEs will be finished and he'll have full support of the YJT and lots of family friends so he'll have more to live for and focus on.

OP posts:
jannier · 28/05/2024 11:59

sheoaouhra · 27/05/2024 21:57

The nail bars and car wash stations are neither here not there. This boy is involved in an exceptionally violent and cruel criminal industry, involved in rape murder and kidnapping on an industrial scale

What do you understand about County lines? You do know the youngsters are targeted and groomed then forced into drug running it's not a choice don't you?

jannier · 28/05/2024 12:02

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 08:34

As I said, I work in prisons and with teens. He has committed a crime with horrendous consequences for victims of the industry. Everyone in prison is a victim in some way. He is no different to hundreds of thousands of others

I think you need more training sometimes just working somewhere isn't enough to understand how to set a child on the right path which explains the dismal failure of the system

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 12:05

jannier · 28/05/2024 12:02

I think you need more training sometimes just working somewhere isn't enough to understand how to set a child on the right path which explains the dismal failure of the system

I've had decades of training and experience, thank you.

jannier · 28/05/2024 12:35

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 12:05

I've had decades of training and experience, thank you.

County lines specific training is relatively new and it's been known that was previously treated badly by the justice system.

WiseKhakiGoose · 28/05/2024 12:38

jannier · 28/05/2024 12:02

I think you need more training sometimes just working somewhere isn't enough to understand how to set a child on the right path which explains the dismal failure of the system

I agree with you 👏👏👏

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 13:04

jannier · 28/05/2024 12:35

County lines specific training is relatively new and it's been known that was previously treated badly by the justice system.

It is not new, It has just got a new name

jannier · 28/05/2024 14:18

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 13:04

It is not new, It has just got a new name

The understanding of how it's evolved is relatively new we didn't have online grooming and mobile phones decades ago nor did we have cyber bullying and stalking or the invasion of our homes, bedrooms and 24 hours a day it was when our kids were out, keep them in they were safe now these people can get out kids anywhere anytime....that is very different to decades ago...as is the way drugs , knives and underage abuse are accessed. But your saying you don't need updated training because it's been happening for decades.....is this why youth offending services are failing?

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 14:41

jannier · 28/05/2024 14:18

The understanding of how it's evolved is relatively new we didn't have online grooming and mobile phones decades ago nor did we have cyber bullying and stalking or the invasion of our homes, bedrooms and 24 hours a day it was when our kids were out, keep them in they were safe now these people can get out kids anywhere anytime....that is very different to decades ago...as is the way drugs , knives and underage abuse are accessed. But your saying you don't need updated training because it's been happening for decades.....is this why youth offending services are failing?

No, I am saying I am trained and experienced. I trained this year. I trained last year. I trained the year before. I trained the year before that. And so on. And as I said, this young person has committed a very nasty crime, and is supporting an industry with multiple victims, including rape, murder, kidnap torture victims. And yes, he is probably a victim to some extent, but basically EVERYBODY in prison is.

WiseKhakiGoose · 28/05/2024 15:20

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 14:41

No, I am saying I am trained and experienced. I trained this year. I trained last year. I trained the year before. I trained the year before that. And so on. And as I said, this young person has committed a very nasty crime, and is supporting an industry with multiple victims, including rape, murder, kidnap torture victims. And yes, he is probably a victim to some extent, but basically EVERYBODY in prison is.

"And yes, he is probably a victim to some extent, but basically EVERYBODY in prison is." - wow, do you really think sociopaths and narcissists who enjoy torturing and killing their victims are victims too and not abusers? Do you really think a man who killed all his family, including kids is somehow a "victim" ?

"this young person has committed a very nasty crime, and is supporting an industry with multiple victims, including rape, murder, kidnap torture victims" - who are the victims in this industry in your opinion?

itsgettingweird · 28/05/2024 15:24

You can't make people view a criminal as anything other than a criminal.

If he shows remorse and turns his life around they may start to see him in a different light.

Their own actions can't be taken into account here. You are free however to judge them for it - which you clearly do. (So would I!)

But the previous poster who said you can be both criminal and victim is correct. But ultimately being a criminal doesn't negate being a victim and some people won't forgive a criminal whatever the situation.

All you can do as his parent is support him how you see fit. You cannot make others adhere to your opinions and thoughts.

jannier · 28/05/2024 17:04

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 14:41

No, I am saying I am trained and experienced. I trained this year. I trained last year. I trained the year before. I trained the year before that. And so on. And as I said, this young person has committed a very nasty crime, and is supporting an industry with multiple victims, including rape, murder, kidnap torture victims. And yes, he is probably a victim to some extent, but basically EVERYBODY in prison is.

County lines is child explanation by adults on children and young people you don't sound like you believe these children are forced into their behaviour maybe it's time for a career change you sound like the older teachers who say if they believed one diagnosis of ASD every child has it.
You do know they get raped, tortured etc if they don't comply don't you. I think your courses are not very good and maybe run by people who pay lip service to it.

MaidOfAle · 28/05/2024 20:18

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 14:41

No, I am saying I am trained and experienced. I trained this year. I trained last year. I trained the year before. I trained the year before that. And so on. And as I said, this young person has committed a very nasty crime, and is supporting an industry with multiple victims, including rape, murder, kidnap torture victims. And yes, he is probably a victim to some extent, but basically EVERYBODY in prison is.

supporting an industry with multiple victims, including rape, murder, kidnap torture victims

Who are these victims? Why did the drugs gangs choose to rape, murder, kidnap, and torture them and not someone else?

I'll tell you who:

  • they are the kids like OP's, but they went to the police or tried to get out.
  • they are the users who couldn't afford to pay later for an advance dose, who are themselves committing possession offences.

These victims all supported the industry that harmed them. Do they all get such contempt from you?

allwillbe · 28/05/2024 20:24

countrysidelife2024 · 25/05/2024 20:48

Id have been with them IF they didn't smoke weed … How can you be against a drug user/dealer .. if you yourself take drugs its just weird especially as he is only 16, personally I think there's been some pretty bad parenting / life choices of the parents and bad circumstances if a 16 year old is getting caught into drugs and comes from a family of drug takers but then i am a judgemental twat.

Yes you are being totally unpleasantly judgemental. The op doesn’t take drugs. Have no idea where you got that from
I hope things turn around for you and your son Op- stick with him, teens make mistakes, some bad ones but they are certainly too young to give up on. Good luck x

sheoaouhra · 28/05/2024 22:23

MaidOfAle · 28/05/2024 20:18

supporting an industry with multiple victims, including rape, murder, kidnap torture victims

Who are these victims? Why did the drugs gangs choose to rape, murder, kidnap, and torture them and not someone else?

I'll tell you who:

  • they are the kids like OP's, but they went to the police or tried to get out.
  • they are the users who couldn't afford to pay later for an advance dose, who are themselves committing possession offences.

These victims all supported the industry that harmed them. Do they all get such contempt from you?

no they are not, they are children kidnapped and trafficked into the UK and forced to work as slaves, not 16 year old near adults, but primary aged, and starved, beaten, denied medical care or education, and taken from parents by force.

Apolloneuro · 28/05/2024 23:40

Can’t they all be victims? Does there have to be a hierarchy?

jmh740 · 28/05/2024 23:49

Shocked at how little understanding of county lines and how much victim blaming is on this thread.
OP please don't blame yourself.

mathanxiety · 29/05/2024 02:38

www.gov.uk/penalties-drug-possession-dealing

There's more to Class A and Class B drugs than cannabis.

Was he supplying GHB? Heroin? Meth?

SpringerFall · 29/05/2024 02:46

jmh740 · 28/05/2024 23:49

Shocked at how little understanding of county lines and how much victim blaming is on this thread.
OP please don't blame yourself.

Victimn blaming? he admited to commiting a crime, the label victim can only be used for so long

Fraaahnces · 29/05/2024 03:06

I don’t feel for one second that you are condoning your DS’s role in this. I can absolutely understand why you are devastated by the wider family’s response. You need to discover if (to them) the bigger crime is what he did or that he was caught - especially if they condone criminal behaviour in their own homes.

POTC · 29/05/2024 03:19

Beachywave · 28/05/2024 11:46

This whole thing makes me feel so sad. It's completely true and he won't even tell me about the things he's seen or been through.

He's got no previous convictions which obviously made him an easy target but will hopefully go in his favour in court.

I might have to consider moving away but I can't see how losing all of our support network will help, not to mention the fact I'll have to find a new job, and wrap around care and nursery fees will be so much higher with no help. I can't see how putting ourselves on the poverty line will help him. It would only take someone in the new area to approach him and he might think it's an easy way to make money to help me out.

I just think I'm best of staying where I am and keeping a much closer eye on him. He'll be able to get a job next month if he's not in custody as his GCSEs will be finished and he'll have full support of the YJT and lots of family friends so he'll have more to live for and focus on.

Please, please reconsider and find a way to move, it could well literally be the difference between life and death for your son.
I have had specific county lines training through work, 6 years ago but sadly little has changed. Junior Smart led our training and the thing that came out of all the real cases he told us about, was that they'd be dead if they'd stayed put. You say that your son isn't in that world anymore, and that there haven't been the problems since it all happened. He has essentially been on house arrest, unable to go anywhere or contact anyone and in the safety of your home. As soon as that changes they will come for him. They'll wait by school, or get someone else involved in the line to pass him a note at school, or on the way there, at the local shop, they'll find a way. They'll either persuade him back into it or they'll do him harm.
There are people who can help, who, like Junior have been there. They are far better placed to give you advice than any of us, even those who are trained. They are also the ones most likely to be able to get through to your son.
This is the project Junior started but there are others out there, Google county lines charity to find others
https://www.stgilestrust.org.uk/sos-change-and-progress/

SOS - Change and Progress - St Giles

As communities change, SOS Founder Junior Smart explains how SOS is evolving to meet new challenges. October this year will be the 10th anniversary of the SOS Project. From a small […]

https://www.stgilestrust.org.uk/sos-change-and-progress

Meadowfinch · 29/05/2024 03:24

Smoking a bit of weed is different from dealing in Class A's.

And here is the attitude that probably got the child into this mess !!

He's watched his extended family, seen drugs in use, thought it was 'normal' and ended up in court.

Yanbu OP. I think the best you can do is support him, and then keep him away from your pot-head family. Don't let them set him a bad example, Can you move away from the area once the court case is over? Break all contacts and give him a completely new start.

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