Sil cancelled visit as our dd wants to be a man.

[Moomoola]

our lovely dd has been getting more isolated from us. On sun she left a note and ran off to her friends house for a few nights to think things through. Friend 17 is having hormones to be a man. Dd threatened the same. She wears a breast binder. They are going out together and there is much subterfuge and lies. We’ve never said anything as far as we are aware, dd onv thinks differently.
Yesterday Dh told his sister who livesabroad and she has immediately cancelled them all coming to stay tomorrow. She doesn’t want her 14 dd to be influenced as she is going out with a girl.
it’s so sudden, we’ve been excited for months. She’s telling her dd it’s due to strikes. What do I tell mine?
do I say strikes or do I tell the truth - it’s a consequence of you leaving us a note and running off.
it’s been horrible and now what should have been fun is depressing and there’s also no reason for dd to come back now when she finds out.
also what do I do with dd?!

Personally, having gone through some massive difficulties with my teen and come out the other side, my advice would be not to engage in lies and manipulation by doing things like withholding their NI number. If the child wants to leave home at 17 they can, and they can also find work. In my experience the most transformative thing in my relationship with my daughter was her leaving home at 18 and and going into full time work. It didn't 'teach her the error of her ways', but it did give her a sense of agency, which I think was really important to her at the time. And although theoretically children are now required to be in some sort of education or training until 18, nobody monitors or enforces this so there's nothing to stop them if this is what they want to do.

If the dd is 'grown up and independent ' enough to be living as she is and telling her parents to stop being involved in her life, she's surely capable as @WednesdaysPlaits sensibly says of going on the gov website to find the NIN.

"If the dd is 'grown up and independent ' enough to be living as she is and telling her parents to stop being involved in her life, she's surely capable as @WednesdaysPlaits sensibly says of going on the gov website to find the NIN." In which case why engage in lies and manipulation to withhold it from them? 'Have you got my NI number?'

Saying “find it yourself sweetheart” isn’t the same as withholding it.

Sorry - didn't finish my post. There's zero reason to withhold an NI number, except if the aim is to exert control, or punish or teach a lesson.

"Saying “find it yourself sweetheart” isn’t the same as withholding it".

If you know where it is and you're not giving it to them it's obstructive and dishonest - behaviour you'd criticise if a child was doing it, but you seem to find reasonable if it's the adult.

Absolutely its not the same, but that doesn't buy into to 'you're so horrible' line does it?
'Lies and manipulation' indeed!

I think there is a difference between immediately going and finding it, versus getting it at your own pace. That wouldn't be withholding it is just not asking how high every time the DD says jump.

Exactly @TeenDivided so far the narrative is 'how dare you contact me/I don't want to hear from you/stay away you're harmful' but contact is ok if op is to do tasks for dd?
Get my bag and take it here. Find my NIN and give it to me?

Sorry @Moomoola this squabbling over semantics isn't helpful for you at all!

It’s making for entertaining reading though!
And helping me feel less alone and that there are passionate caring people in the world, so thank you!

to me this sums up the whole reason why this is so very tricky - apart from the obvious emotional stress which is clouding my judgement, there is also the feeling that we are hopefully being rational but suspect strongly that dd is not in a rational frame of mind and that the people she is around at the moment are misconstruing what we say.

Im not overly keen to help someone who has caused such unthinking damage, and can’t even ask for their NI no/ bag politely, yet if I don’t I suspect it will be spun as me being transphobic and abusive.
im tempted to write, ‘ I can’t look for it until you learn some manners’! But obv that won’t go down well !

'Lies and manipulation' indeed!"

'Do you have my NI number?'.

What's the truthful answer to that? Yes, no, or (if true) I don't know where it is.

'Can I have it?

"Yes - but I want to make you wait for it to teach you a lesson about manners and to exert some control over you." Manipulation. If you want your child not to behave in a manipulative way it helps if you model what honest behaviour looks like.

Well, she has just sent a friendly message because she wants money for something.
utterly gobsmacked.
very tempted to say,’ you have moved out so you need to pay for it.’ Or better still tell her as she’s living with x and the mum, they can pay.

Do you think that's because she's testing you? Either to prove 'I came to you for help and you DIDN'T!!' Therefore 'proving' you are indeed sooo mean and against her. Or she's realised you're not going to keep chasing get for attention and this is her trying for this? Or she's trying to communicate? So hard!

Yes it is! The school said they had encouraged her to keep talking and arrange specific times to see us rather than keep us hanging.
it may be a way to communicate, it may be she just wants to go. What I don’t want is as a pp said, for us to be running after her in the hope she’ll give us attention.

Tricky one.

I think I’d say

”Hi darling. We do need to be clear on things like this if you decide that you no longer want to live at home. I’m afraid that financial support isn’t possible. That isn’t the way that adult life works. We will agree to continue to pay for your phone contract so that’s one less thing you have to pay for. I hope you’ve had a good week. Fred tells me he has no homework and is already on the Xbox. Dad will no doubt be watching sky sports all weekend. We love you very much. Our door is always open for you xx”

"Sorry lovely, can't afford it at the moment - planning your brother's birthday (thinking of going to Nandos, do let me know if you'd like to pop along!) Have you had any luck with the weekend job search? X"

Light, airy, supportive but very much a 'life is going on here, you're welcome to join!' you can't keep your life hanging on for minimal contact and requests from her. There are consequences to decisions. No point asking her for manners because that's white noise to a teen. Pulling back other supports (aforementioned gopherism with the school bag and NIN and frivalous spending money) will land harder and more unexpected. You're not being unsupportive but rather just being realistic. You can't keep time by in case she needs you to drop a bag at the drop of a hat or keep spare money in case she needs to spend it. That's not realistic.

I feel like we should all be joining you at Nando’s!

Re the suicide stats, they are part of the manipulation of transactivists and really unethical. The stats bandied about are based on a tiny, self-selecting sample from a survey conducted by Stonewall. Such research that does exist indicates that suicidality is no better after transition than before.

We also have the issue of the unethical and dangerous nature of attributing suicidal ideation to one thing - as outlined by the Samaritans.

If only we had better statistics, but inexplicably the trans lobby (as evidenced in recent events in Scotland) don't seem in favour of the collection of better data for healthcare purposes.

Thank you wednesdays and batshit I think we will say something like you have both suggested.
Oh gosh id love that! there’s a large whatever you fancy there for you all!And a silly hat x

She has now texted whether tomorrow ds birthday is day or evening. So I am very pleased that she is communicating albeit briefly.
We haven’t yet replied. Dh says he will find it hard to say goodbye and will think about it all week if she comes. Ds shrugged but it did seem quite a keen shrug.
I will text her tomorrow. I think we need to invite her. I will say we are meeting at nandos and you are welcome.
going to be difficult doing the silly birthday traditions without her!

aresulalaundress ( great name) yes, we have done a lot of reading. We are utterly amazed at how this indoctrination sexualisation and medicalisation of young people is encouraged under the lgbt flag. There is now a group called trans against groomers. Which says something.

The school is proud to have achieved silver status for the lgbt charter. On the surface the handbook for young trans sounds super! Include us! We are marginalised! It is written like an advert for a glossy holiday. Lots of illustrations of cool people with butterfly wings and art they’ve done. it casually mentions how some people feel they need to be physically aligned etc. makes it sound like buying a new frock. And of course it mentions how distressing not being physically aligned can be. Utter madness.
my dd seems to think having boobs cut off is no big deal. I tried to explain err, it is, having had a masectomy, but apparantly I’m not gender dysphoric so it was ok for me. I don’t like my chubby legs. I think I’ll have them cut off.
sorry, ranting!
thanks everyone

Cheeky mare.
I would do what other PP have advised.
She wants to be a titless adult trans whatever? Fine - she'll have to fund all that and other sundries herself.

mavis that made me laugh, thank you!

onceuponawhileago mentioned radical acceptance by Martha lineham ( I think that’s her name) I found these links if they of use to anyone. They do seem quite useful.
positivepsychology.com/radical-acceptance-worksheets/
static1.squarespace.com/static/577d2ce937c58194f7d39816/t/60c7e92fa3583448b8c6fa19/1623714139969/dbt_skills_training_handouts_and_worksheets_-linehan_marsha_srg.pdf

Day 17. Reading this thread again! Very calming and good advice. Thanks all.

Gosh not sure which but I'd reply saying either you have your own money or mates mum. I'd be saying once you've moved out, you pay your own way