Suitable punishment for lying about where she is

[jackstini]

Dd is 15 (16 in March)

Few weeks ago we had an issue with her being out in a city, then a park until about 11 then stayed at a friend's house, where we've let her stay before

Issue is she had told us she was at a different friend's and only admitted where she had been when really pushed (& I had screenshots of her phone location)

We grounded her for a couple of weeks (ended up being 3 as she caught Covid)

She's gone to a friend's tonight, for a Halloween sleepover. Her phone says she's there but a friend of mine thinks she's just seen her in a tram going into town

Not answering phone (although iPhone says it is at friend's house) Best friend not answering hers either. Mum at the house she's staying at not answering text

Ideas please on WWYD now...

Having said that, I agree that going nuclear and punishing her isn’t going to work.

It’s more about building trust as long as she also actually engage with that process.
You need a discussion about boundaries and review those boundaries with her.
But first of all, you need a discussion with your DH. Because you are not going to go anywhere if you are not both in the same wave length. So you might well have said YES to her going out and doing this and that. But if she feels that her dad isn’t in board, she will still feel that she can’t ask.
I’d also remind her that it’s pretty normal for parents to check when their teens are. It’s not just you by all means! But what seems to have worked well for us is to have no curfew when it’s a house party (they tend to finish around 11.00~12.0pm anyway) but other rules when it’s being in town for example.

@travelLost that's because you are an adult! You do not think like that at 15. You didn't and I didn't! So why should OPS DD?

She was not on her own she was with her friend and then the friends mum came to collect them both.

@Sidehustle99, I’m well aware about that.
She was still wo an adult and no phone of her own.

Being in a group helps up to a point. But maybe not so much when faced with a group of 5~7 men, drunk and twice their age.
Even less the way they were dressed (yes they should be able to dress whatever way they want but some men will take that as an open invitation).

I actually have a discussion with her about what sort if people they’ve encountered and how they behaved (not always towards her/them).

@BunNcheese you mean that at 15yo you’ve never been scared by some group of men?!?

You’ve been lucky if that’s the case. Because I was, even in broad day light.

@TravelLost

OK then should we lock up our daughters? I mean at what point would any girl/woman be able to defend themselves against a bird of 7/8 men hellbent on intimidating them?

I def think it would be better if she had her phone on her and hadn't have to leave it at her mates house.

I think you've been given a hard time OP - but I think you also need to make some radical changes to the dynamic between you, DH and DD. My dd is also 15, 16 next month and is vulnerable due to some MH problems. She went out to a Halloween party last night - it was her first proper teenage party with alcohol there and I don't know the parents or other kids who went. I did not sleep a wink and was a ball of anxiety all yesterday and last night - BUT I tried my best not to show her my fears and she came home safe but very hungover this morning and actually thanked me for giving her the trust and freedom.

She even showed me photos from the party and whilst I was a bit horrified at the level of drunken debauchery I didn't say that - instead I praised her for staying off the strong stuff and keeping herself safe.

What I think worked for us was:

1. Before she went talking very openly about managing alcohol in party situations- not drinking spirits or punch, not drinking a drink you left unattended
2. Avoiding drugs at all costs and how to cope with peer pressure
3. Asking her to text me at midnight and 1am
4. Telling her repeatedly that if she feels unsafe or the party gets a bit moody to call us ANY TIME of the night for a lift home NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

Good luck OP it's so hard transitioning from them being children to this

@TravelLost the girls were collected at 20.30. I see your point but you are STILL speaking as an adult and being very pedantic.

Read my other comments I had to get 4 buses a day at 16 in order to work... it was dark sometimes. I'm only 30 BTW!

Tracking your DD and going to the lengths of multiple punishments is taking things WAY too far in my book. Or do you assume that this will stop a determined teen?

Posters are trying to get OP on her DDs wave length!

I'm not sure I believe OP as the friends mother did pick the girls up.... so if OP was worried she should of expressed that to the adult.... (assuming she knows the mum well enough for her DD to be staying out) that part didn't make sense to me but anyway I'm sure OP means well!

[quote TravelLost]@BunNcheese you mean that at 15yo you’ve never been scared by some group of men?!?

You’ve been lucky if that’s the case. Because I was, even in broad day light.[/quote]
Dramatic at best. Have you never been in town when the football is on and so on even when it's early things happen it's about learning how to be able to manage these situations. Perhaps you needed to learn this skill when you were younger. It seems its hindering you in adult life still.

Football matches and the City I live is quite busy even in the day time with people drinking on a weekend.

You have completely missed the point here.

@Sidehustle99, should we lock our daughters? Of course not. And you know that very well (and I’ve never said we should either)

When should we ‘let’ our dd out?
Well let’s put it this way. A town close to me is always very busy on Friday and Saturday nights. It’s a well known place for people to go out partying. Cue for people stumbling drunk in the streets at 4.00pm on a Saturday afternoon.
I’ve never seen any group of 15yo out in their own after 6.00pm. After 6.00pm (once shops are closed), you have groups of hen parties/out for fun etc… Thats about it. You dint see families with young children. You don’t see groups of teenagers. 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️
I mean even getting the train can be an issue so you have the police there to handle the drunks. I dint know about you but I’d say that if the police feel they have to be present, it’s because they know even at even 6.00pm behaviour and safety can be an issue.

Personally, would I let my dd out until 8.30pm?
In our closer town, yes. In that particular town that is attracting lots if drunken behaviours? Nope.

And how can teens learn how to handle those situations? Well by not dropping them at the deep end straight away.
They can go out is safer environment and then gradually build up to places that are not as ‘nice’. You can use that as a way for them to become more street wise as well as giving them pointers and advice on how to handle specific situations.

It certainly doesn’t have to be an all or nothing situation.

I think the ‘punishment’ will be her peers possibly taking the mick out of her - quite embarrassing at her age being picked up!

I do believe you have her complete best interest at heart & like you lying is a huge no no. That has meant I’ve had to agree to my daughter to make some iffy choices without judgement - but at least I know where she is & she can phone me if she in trouble!

She had a friend whose parents where incredibly controlling & pretty much said no to every normal teenage thing…..the relationship with the parents is not good, lying and controlling behaviour on all sides, secretive & underhand tactics of the parents always trying to trip them up (no trust) it has meant it’s been hugely isolating for the teenager - invites dwindled friendship troubled. I’m aware of two bad drink/drug binges. They now 18 and pretty much want nothing to do with their parents - see uni as a fresh start. They worked all over summer to aim to be as finically independent from them & apparently now has a partner so won’t be home at Christmas.

It’s a fine line letting them go, I’ve had many sleepless nights & 11/12 pick ups from parties but I’ve let her make her own mistakes (she only got sick drunk once & I picked her up held her hair while she throw up - lesson learnt.) she’s fairly sensible now and trust worthy. It’s difficult but at 16 they want to believe they mini adults and whilst we want to protect them from everything our job is to provide the guard rails, listen and sometimes pick up the pieces when it goes wrong (without judgement) and just hope because you have open dialogue they’ve listened enough to know actually this isn’t safe or maybe not a good idea!

@NinetyNineRedBalloonsGoBy

good for you and your DD, I'm glad she had a nice time!
we have had many similar chats with ours, they have to give basic info so the rules of engagement are to tell us:

• where they are going
• who with (a few names are enough, I don't need a bloody register)
• when will you be back
• text if change in location, ETA or anything else relevant but not urgent
• call if there are any issues at all, if you need help, there's an emergency etc

we also have exchanged phone numbers with their closest friends & their parents, we know where lots of them live too (because of drop offs & pick ups) and so if anything happens our kids' friends know they can call us too.
we have a good relationship with them (they always hug me, one of them just asked me yesterday if I wanted to join their party🤣 and another made plans to get drunk together when he turns 18🤣🤣 - they are so funny and lovely) and they all know that we love them & trust them. That matters so much.

also re: anger - I've drilled into kids from a young age that if they do anything and think "oops, mum will get cross when she finds out" they just need to snap out of it and tell me anyway.
yes, I might get angry and yes there might be a punishment BUT none of that will be as bad as lying and making things worse!
I always bring up hit & runs as an example. and I try to reassure them that no matter how bad something seems we can deal with it but they need to say it and need to say it asap!!

so far so good

also re: anger - I've drilled into kids from a young age that if they do anything and think "oops, mum will get cross when she finds out" they just need to snap out of it and tell me anyway.
yes, I might get angry and yes there might be a punishment BUT none of that will be as bad as lying and making things worse!

That depends on the parent setting reasonable expectations and being approachable. Like other posters on this thread, I had very strict parents and the fairly small things they would get cross about (even looking back as an adult) were absolutely ridiculous. And lying about it and not having to suffer my parents "going nuclear" was infinitely better.

My teens know that if they tell me they've done or planning to do something I might not approve of, we will have a calm discussion about whether it is/was a good idea and suggest other ways to behave. It's led to an open relationship where they are frank about what they think and do (and no, I'm not naive enough to think that even then they tell me "everything") which I think is infinitely preferable to my relationship with my parents where we don't discuss anything more taxing that the weather and what's growing in the garden. You also have to accept (as a parent) that your teens might make different decisions to you, and sometimes you have to let them make the "wrong" decision.

The most telling part of OP's posts is when she says her daughter doesn't even ask to go to parties because she knows her parents will say "no". She's got this idea from somewhere ...

When I dropped her off today I reminded her she needs to tell us if she's going anywhere and send pics so cannot believe she has been so stupid and she is going to really regret it

I thought we did have a trusting relationship before the lying a month ago

Can you not see how the first quote from you directly contradicts the second.

The fact that you searched for her in Mac Donald’s, you met her off the tram, your Dh saying he wants to go around to another parents house and “go mental”

You have the opposite of a trusting relationship.

The lying is a culmination of years of being told No to things and the control you exert over her every movement.

It is learned behaviour knowing what you are going to be like if she asks for anything and knowing what the answer will be suggests this isn’t about the last 4 weeks

I mean did she actually lie to your Dh when he called her during the day. I noted she actually texted to check if it was ok to go out with her friends during the day. Maybe at the time she didn’t know they would be going out later.

You might not think you are controlling and think you are just keeping her safe
It does not sound like you have a relaxed relationship with your Dd.
If this was an adult relationship it would be abusive. In fact all this stuff including the “send pics” is what a friend went through with her controlling and abusive ex who also said he was just worried about her and wanted to keep her safe.

You are more into catching her out and what punishment you can inflict than nurturing a trusting relationship

I lied to my mother all the time because sometimes she would not find out = win and if she did then the reaction was no different than if I had asked in the first place

@RedskyThisNight

you are right about being approachable.
it's all about communication and what relationships you have.
my kids might worry about my reactions but they don't fear me (fuck, far from it!🤣), if that makes sense

My Mum was OTT with my freedom as a teen. She would have just caught me out, so I didn't lie, I left home as soon as I could at 18.

2 weeks being grounded for previous lie was OTT and will have influenced her decisions this time. She will soon be 16 and legally can leave home, go to a friends house and refuse to come home and police will not intervene, leave school and get a fulltime job. She soon wont need 'permission' from parents to do anything, parenting after 16 is by consent and about mutual respect. you can of course have house rules like curfews but if she chooses to break them unless you throw her out or cut her off financially there's little you can do. 16 year olds are deemed to have capacity to make their own decisions even ones parents consider foolish like wearing skimpy clothes in a town centre at night. All you can do is educate them how to stay safe, let them know you are always there to help and trust you have done a good enough job that they will get through the teen years unscathed and they will continue to listen to advice. It is really hard to let go as we all remember times when we were in situations that felt unsafe but you lose the legal right to make those decisions for your child at 16 so by 15 they need to have had enough freedom and experience to be making good safe choices themselves. I don't think any parent finds this easy but the level of control you have over her life and lack of privacy is not age appropriate. The best way to keep them safe is to be the parent that says yes or reaches a sensible compromise and who will be a taxi service. I would recommend reading some teen parenting books I found it really helpful to see things from their perspective.

The thing with teens is you cannot control them. Ask any parent with a teen off the rails- refusing school, doing alcohol/drugs/unprotected sex, disappearing for days, perhaps even doing criminal activity.

You may think you have control, but it is an illusion. They consent to being parented at this stage and so you have to have a relationship built on trust and respect. The OPs DD is generally a good kid. She goes to school, she gets good grades. She’s not off getting drunk/high/pregnant. OP needs to give her some credit for the good choices she is already making at 15, almost 16.

The hardest thing as a parent is to realise that your child doesn’t have to listen to you or obey you. So you become an advisor and mentor to guide them through ever more adult situations.

I remember my 16 DD telling me she’d met a 22 yr old woman online living in Paris with the exact same rare hobby and that she wanted to take the train alone to meet her in Paris for an evening show. Did I forbid her? No...I sat down with her and gave her a refresher on how you do not know who someone is online and why it was not safe for her to first meet this friend IRL alone, on an evening (in the dark) in central Paris. She agreed. And we mutually decided to invite the friend to take the train to our city to meet my DD in the daytime. They did this for a few months, I met the friend. Then my DD and another friend from school both went and met the new friend in Paris.

But you have to have the kind of relationship that is not controlling and forbidding...because they will just sneak off do it anyway and be less safe because they won’t have your guidance. With my teens when it’s a “no” like above, I’ve never said no outright, Ive said here are my concerns, let’s figure out a way to make this work safely.

And teens appreciate this. They then will seek your advice and tell you when things happen.

🤷‍♀️ At her age I was trusted to be out at night alone with no more protection than my front key and knowledge of how to make a collect call if I needed rescuing. I don't think my parents were actually bothered where I was, so long as I was Back By Bedtime, Not In Any Trouble, and Not Treating Them Like a Taxi Service.

I've read through this entire thread, and still don't understand why your daughter is at such risk that you feel the need to protect her like this. If you are going to such lengths, is she unusually vulnerable?

I agree with most people that this was not handled well. But Nottingham is not a great place evening/night.

The DD lies because her dads an aggressive bully...

He wanted to go and kick off at the mom.
He wanted to go and kick off with DD.
He went mad when she got home.

OP - whose idea was it to check on her in the first place? Whose idea was it to meet her at the tram station and take her home?

Thanks all for the advice

I went to pick her stuff up from her friends at lunchtime. DH asked her if she wanted to go but she said no

The mum asked me in (we do know each other and we had a good chat about communication - she knew some info but not all and it was really helpful to chat things through with her

This afternoon, in the spirit of transparency and open communication, I let dd read this thread. (She agrees with many of you, annoyed with some!)

It gave us a lot of things to discuss and we spent time going through things she wants to do, feels she is mature enough to do and safety measures to take

Talked about drinking, spiking, peer pressure and will agree an emergency code word for immediate pick up

Agreed to see how we go as long as honesty is there. She will ask us if she can do things & tell us when plans change

She agreed sending her Dad a text at 5.30 saying 'we're staying in now' then getting on a tram into Nottingham at 6.30 was not the right thing to do!

We are looking at 6th form options at the moment so lots more talking about independence, future plans etc.

We will save the thread and come back to it when we need ideas. Meanwhile carving a Harry Potter pumpkin together

Thanks for the head wobbles, suggestions and empathy - that's why I have loved Mumsnet for the past 16 years!

Wow OP. I’m glad you showed her the thread and have had such good conversations. Has your DH read the thread too? It might help if you are all working with the same information as the two of you as parents do need to be united and in agreement.

Agree we need to be united

He's not read the thread yet, not sure if it would help or hinder - but at least things are calmer than yesterday

I definitely need to speak more to him and make sure it's a continuing conversation but it's a start

I am so happy reading your update there OP. Communication is always the key. Good luck with the A level choices - exciting times