my DD refuses to come to my sister's (gay) wedding

[Alexrose123]

Help! My DD is in the middle of her GCSEs. They finish next week. The very next day is my sister's wedding - but my DD is refusing to attend. She says she doesn't believe in gay marriage anyway (I do - I don't know where she gets this opinion from), and she wants to go out celebrating the end of exams with her friends instead. I am not close to my sister - not through want of trying on my part, but I really would like us all to be there at the wedding as a family. And it would be especially noted and I would no doubt get a lot of flak from the wider family if my DD did not attend the wedding. As she is in the middle of her exams I don't want to stress her about this but its a real quandary - what comes first? Loyalty to my sister? Or respecting my DD's needs/views on this? It is a pretty important family social obligation she has known about for a long time. Maybe she needs to learn the art of compromise to keep the peace? I don't see how I can force her to attend against her wishes other than some form of inducement...any advice appreciated.

Cauliflower But surely compromise is perfectly possible here? She could go to the wedding and then leave and go out with her friends.

I don't disagree with putting yourself first sometimes, but lots of posters seem to think that this is default mode for teenagers and that obligations don't exist for them full stop. And in terms of her excuse, saying she objects to gay marriage just makes her sound like a not very nice person.

TendonQueen

Anything that revolves around
"if you don't do this, I won't do Y" is a form of blackmail.

"Would it be blackmail to say to a teenager that you want them to do certain household chores in return for getting pocket money?"

the difference is in the word "want", or any other term that could be slotted in there. If we are expecting an adult (the term used by many in this thread) discussion, then there needs to be scope for an actual discussion, not a statement.

"Is this all one way traffic where a parent is expected to give but can expect nothing in return?"

Should a parent expect anything in return from their children? Did parents have children so that they could give anything back other than the joy of seeing them grow, or did they have children as an investment for old age (or whatever)?

There is a difference between an exchange I've chores for pocket money. If a teenager/young adult has a principle or view then I believe you have to respect it, even if you disagree with it. If parents do not then they are teaching the young person that standing by their view is not important and that their opinion is not important.

If the DD is truly homophobic (and she may well not be, she may be an unthinking 16yo who said the first thing that popped into her mind to get out of going to the wedding) then I am surprised at the posters who are minimising or dismissing her views. If a 16yo refused to go to a mixed race wedding on the grounds that races should be kept pure would you just pass that by as a silly thing young people say? Or if she refused to attend a wedding between a lower caste person and higher caste person on the grounds that lower caste people are dirty and polluting, would you just wait for her to grow out of it? And if she thought that believing in different religions is OK but Christians should not marry Muslims because they are infidels and will go to hell, would you say that was a reasonable view to have?

I am not saying your DD believes her original comment OP, she's more than likely wanting to party, got stressed and said something really stupid - something she knows is stupid, but I am surprised at the number of posters who would excuse a teenager holding these views if they were held genuinely.

Boney So when your employer tells you that if you keep not turning up for work, you won't get paid, it's blackmail? Nice to know, I'll try that argument with them Ah, no I won't because it's rubbish.

Expectations: do we expect good behaviour of our children, ever? (Having taught them what we mean by that, and given them chance to learn it, of course) do we just sigh when they throw food or kick the cat and say 'ah, well, I'm having the joy of seeing them grow'

I don't expect my children to pay me back in old age, or have exactly the same views as me, or prioritise my social life at the expense of their own at all times.

But I expect them to behave like decent people. Pulling out a homophobic comment because you think it can get you out of going to a function is not behaving like a decent person: it is hurtful and rude and at 16 you should know that.

I also expect them to recognise that in a family one takes it in turns to pull out all the stops when something is important to somebody else. In the present case two functions that are both important to somebody unfortunately clash. But the excuse that "I am a teenager so I don't have to consider what is important to others" wouldn't cut much ice in the cory household. Being expected to remember that other people go to a lot of trouble for your sake and that you need to take turns and reciprocate is not blackmail.

If you decide you are not able to reciprocate at any one particular time, you express regret in a civilised manner. 16 is not too young to learn this.
A polite letter to her aunt explaining she has a prior commitment seems the appropriate course, if there is really no possible compromise.

TendonQueen
Boney So when your employer tells you that if you keep not turning up for work, you won't get paid, it's blackmail? Nice to know, I'll try that argument with them smile Ah, no I won't because it's rubbish.

It is rubbish, but it is your rubbish because it is completely different. An employer advertises for a job, I sign a contract to do the job, If I do the job a I get paid if not I get fired.

Two people entering in to a contract is completely different to a parent saying 'you will do this or else'.

Expectations: do we expect good behaviour of our children, ever? (Having taught them what we mean by that, and given them chance to learn it, of course) do we just sigh when they throw food or kick the cat and say 'ah, well, I'm having the joy of seeing them grow'

Demanding that a 16 yo goes to a wedding of someone that she doesn't know (very well or at all) and threatening them with a sanction is different from them doing something wrong (your examples of "throw food or kick the cat") and being sanctioned for it.

Is good behaviour doing something because they are family? Does it matter that the family hasn't treated someone you love very well?
Are we modelling good behaviour by saying 'do this or else'?
At what point are people going to allow the children to be the people that they have been brought up to be?

How would you make a 16-yo go somewhere she doesn't want to?

" (daughter name) we're going to XYZ this afternoon."
"Okay mum."

I honestly think that a lot of these 'teenager' issues are entirely the parents fault for pandering and allowing their kids to develop that pattern of behaviour in their early and pre- teen years.

I would expect my 16yo to remember that I do a good many things that I don't particularly want to, and that I do them with good grace and cheerfully because I want to make his life pleasant and enjoyable. I would of course try to understand his pov and if at all possible suggest alternatives or compromises, but I do not get the idea that a near-adult should not have any sense of reciprocity. Unless of course you have been the kind of parent who have never put yourself out for them.

My ds is also sitting his GCSE's. He was very upset when he was not allowed to go north with us to take it in turns to sit by the side of his dying grandmother. He understood how painful and difficult it would be for him, but he wanted to give something back in recognition of years of kindness. He also wanted to be there for his dad who has always been there for him. I rather think he is being the person he has been brought up to be.

corythatwas
The reciprocity is between you and your DS, with the OP between her and her DD.
If the OP will get flak from "wider family" then that is between her and wider family.

and from the first post
Maybe she needs to learn the art of compromise to keep the peace?
How far should the DD have to take this?

corythatwas

"Being expected to remember that other people go to a lot of trouble for your sake and that you need to take turns and reciprocate is not blackmail."

No, but being told that if you don't do as you are told it will stop is.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 11-Jun-16 22:02:41

"corythatwas
The reciprocity is between you and your DS, with the OP between her and her DD."

Exactly. This is something the mum wants her to do and her response has made her mum uncomfortable. We don't need to go into the aunt's feelings to see where reciprocity would be a useful thing.

""Being expected to remember that other people go to a lot of trouble for your sake and that you need to take turns and reciprocate is not blackmail."

No, but being told that if you don't do as you are told it will stop is."

I can see your point, but it raises the question how you do get your children to understand this issue if they are not decent enough in themselves to want to take it onboard. Almost anything you say seems to fall under the heading of emotional blackmail. Otoh it could be argued that you are hardly doing them a favour if you let them live under the impression that a take-take attitude can lead to a healthy relationship with anyone, whether a parent or a partner or a friend.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 11-Jun-16 22:02:41

"corythatwas
The reciprocity is between you and your DS, with the OP between her and her DD."

Exactly. This is something the mum wants her to do and her response has made her mum uncomfortable. We don't need to go into the aunt's feelings to see where reciprocity would be a useful thing.

""Being expected to remember that other people go to a lot of trouble for your sake and that you need to take turns and reciprocate is not blackmail."

No, but being told that if you don't do as you are told it will stop is."

I can see your point, but it raises the question how you do get your children to understand this issue if they are not decent enough in themselves to want to take it onboard. Almost anything you say seems to fall under the heading of emotional blackmail. Otoh it could be argued that you are hardly doing them a favour if you let them live under the impression that a take-take attitude can lead to a healthy relationship with anyone, whether a parent or a partner or a friend.

corythatwas
Exactly. This is something the mum wants her to do and her response has made her mum uncomfortable. We don't need to go into the aunt's feelings to see where reciprocity would be a useful thing.

Is the OP uncomfortable because the DD doesn't believe in gay marriage or because "wider family" will give her "flak".
Some posters have suggested compromises that may work if distance permits, but as the OP asks which is more important "Loyalty to my sister?" who she rarely sees "Or respecting my DD's needs/views on this?". Her loyalties seem to be split.

but it raises the question how you do get your children to understand this issue if they are not decent enough in themselves to want to take it onboard. Almost anything you say seems to fall under the heading of emotional blackmail. Otoh it could be argued that you are hardly doing them a favour if you let them live under the impression that a take-take attitude can lead to a healthy relationship with anyone, whether a parent or a partner or a friend.

Surely one of the main things to do as a parent is to bring up your child as their own person, if there are clashes then they should be discussed.
I suspect that the OP's DD may have no issues with gay marriage but would rather go out with her friends than go to a wedding of someone that she barely knows.

I don't see anything odd about the OP's loyalties being split: seems a perfectly natural situation to me. There are times when my first loyalty would be to dc and other times when it might be to a relative in another country because their situation seemed to warrant it. Dc know this. They feel the same: sometimes they will put me first, sometimes somebody else.

Don't quite get what you mean by bringing your child up to "be your own person". If it means thinking for yourself, fine. If it means, putting your own desires before everybody else's all the time- then I am not so sure. My children are just people, like me: they have rights, but they also have a duty to be generally decent people.

I suspect like you that the dd is only using supposed objections to gay marriage for her own purposes. I don't find that very impressive or a great example of being "your own person".

Or to put it another way: no 16yo could grow up in this society and attend a normal school without knowing how much misery homophobia (or racism or misogyny) cause. If knowing that, she is still prepared to use it as just a silly excuse- then "her own person" has some growing up to do.

Not liking gay marriage is not homophobic. Just because someone made a law one day to say this group of people can do x, y, z doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it, it's allowed in a democratic country.

I've never heard as many ridiculous answers such as sanctioning kids because they don't want to go to a wedding, writing to the bride saying your not going ( I'm guessing she wasn't named on the invite so wouldn't have to answer), she has to follow social protocol - wtf is social protocol?

I suspect of OP said her DD had her after exam party to go to rather than the wedding no one would bat an eyelid, mountain out of molehill comes to mind but then some people on here like a bit of drama in their lives.

Does your sister show much interest in her? Has she asked how the GCSEs are going, or what her plans are for sixth form etc etc? If not, then assume she won't particularly care if she's there or not, and that the invitation was only extended as a formality because they happen to share DNA. It would be lovely to have a fairytale happy family but we can't force these things. Your sister's close friends will be there, celebrating with her, and that's what counts.

Your daughter is not a homophobe. That nonsense was an excuse. Very silly though.

corythatwas

I wouldn't hold it up as being a good example either, but then I wouldn't hold up being so worried about what family members that you have had little to do with think of the OP as a good example either.

there is nothing odd about her loyalties being split but she is projecting that on to her DD, her DD should have the right to make up her own mind about what she does and not be used by someone else as a pawn in the families dysfunctional relationships.
As for what being her own person means, it means different things to different people, for me it means (at least partially) being able to make your own mind up about things and acting on them, sometimes putting yourself first and sometimes others.

*Not liking gay marriage is not homophobic. Just because someone made a law one day to say this group of people can do x, y, z doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it, it's allowed in a democratic country.
*

Are you aware how stupid you sound right now?

You can't choose your family. Clearly if the OP is struggling to be close to her DS then her DD will be too.

The great MN quote "a wedding invitation is an invitation, not a summons". "No is a complete sentence". Your DD shouldn't have to attend the wedding of someone she's not close to nor has any interest in. She can choose her friends. They are the people who have supported her more over the past couple of years than distant, disinterested auntie. Friendships are particularly intense during your teens. I'd let her go out with her friends.

Not liking gay marriage is not homophobic. Just because someone made a law one day to say this group of people can do X y and z doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it.

Oh yes it is. Firstly you are minimising the spirit of hetero only laws. They are not random choices by odd people out there, they are reflections of a particular religious view on the roles of men and women which goes hand in hand with a denial of this role for homosexual couples, all enshrined in law. Secondly, if someone made a law giving people of all races the right to vote and you didn't like it because you thought only whites should vote, you'd be a racist - you're allowed to be a racist in a democratic society, but that's what you are. Thirdly this is not about random people being stopped from being homophobic, I'm an adult I can see that some other adults hold awful views, but this is about someone's child. We have a special interest in our children's views and values, we don't just shrug it off if they are homophobic, sexist, racist and say 'Oh well it's a free world, what can you do?!".

Some of the posts on here are unbelievable. And she's also allowed to have her own views on gay marriage - that's not illegal, or intrinsically wrong, it's called freedom of opinion and freedom of speech. Give the girl a break.

I agree with this.

I can't help feeling most of the posters here have not brought up teenagers yet, and have a rose tinted view of how their children will behave when they are older.

In Scotland 16 year olds can vote, I expect they all vote on their parents' instruction!!

The op confuses things by not explaining the bad feeling between family members, or why other family would be so down on her for not bringing all her family. It sounds as if she is going what the family wants against her own wishes.

So the people who disagreed (and continue to disagree) with the marriages between white people and POC, weren't (and aren't) racist, they're just 'entitled to their own opinions'?

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but is also used by bigots as a defense.

If you want to have an outdated view, of course you're entitled to it, but there are consequences to those views.