Why would you even WANT to copy the Parisienne look?

[GoldfishParade]

Just think it's interesting when you see threads but also newspaper articles etc about the "French" look and specifically the Parisian look - a kind of understated elegant style, I get it.

But honestly, having lived in France for a decade now (in six cities in different regions) I really think this is a bit of a misplaced myth, in the same way that in France in some crowds there can be a bit of glamourising around "le gentleman so British". Sure, when you're in london you may very occasionally see some really dapper looking men wearing those big beige overcoats (what are they called by the way? The big flappy things they wear over suits? Like a kind of trench coat?).

But by and large whenever I go back to the UK I genuinely find British women dress better, with more snap, in outfits that have more interest. What I've learnt from my time here is that the whole understated elegance thing doesnt necessarily stem from wanting to look effortless, it's actually about not wanting to stand out from the crowd. I remember a friend asking me if I thought her shoes were too "m'as tu vu" (flashy). They just weren't black. In fact you barely ever see coats here that arent black, grey, or beige. Teenagers basically look no different from their parents. Fashion doesnt really happen at all. I think in the 10 years I've been here nothing has really changed, its still jeans, delicate trainers, a Longchamp handbag and a trench, just like Mum. Maybe the jeans got slightly wider lately; that's all.

It always seems to me theres some fabulous styled women in the UK, "even" outside London. I see "even" because outside of Paris, in the French "provinces" thing start to go downhill quite rapidly IMO.

So why does the French thing continue to inspire? I honestly think in the UK you are freer to experiment, you have more choice, and people by and large look pretty rocking. Maybe the trend for heavy makeup could be toned down a bit, also the fillers trend (from what I'm reading) in the UK is a bit shocking.

When I lived in France I found the fashion very boring. Everyone dressed the same (in black mostly or plain colours). All women had identical shoulder length hair cuts dyed dark brown or black. No one ever dressed up or wore heels or different patterns/bright colours

Dressing like men do in other words. Comfortable and boring.

I don't think that @Gwenhwyfar. Chicken fajitas were about the only decentish thing I could cook, was only 20 in 97.

@GoldfishParade I also detest the Doudoune and mentally downgrade anyone who wears one. I think one reason the French go for them in a big way is because they live in terror of being cold.

Oh yes that's true. When I moved to France all my neighbours were horrified that I took my baby out in cold weather and my kids were never wrapped up like the French.
I only see JOTT doudounes nothing really thick but there are lots of parkas about

Love the doudoune.... it's my drug dealer coat according to DS. But we dont't live in NYC and hang around on 42nd and 8th; we live in a village in the country and I am 64.... it's all about warm and dog walking here. If anyone asks me for a dime, I'll laugh.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Really? Have you been to the Weatherspoons or the carveries?

Yes, and I'd take either over some fucking awful Sports Bar - food wise, anyway "

Is that the equivalent of a pub in France? Couldn't you say a simple cafe would be the equivalent. It's a while since I've spent a long time in France so I'm not familiar with these sports bars. Food must be really awful.

A sports bar is the closest equivalent of a typical pub. The 'simple cafe' beloved by British tourists is something of a rarity now because, even in France, it's far less common than it used to be to eat out at lunchtime - and it was the lunchtime trade that sustained those places. When I was first working in France in the 90s, everyone I worked with went for a 2 hour lunch break, and most ate at a restaurant at least twice a week.

You still get cafes, of course, but most of them buy their food from mass production factories. It may be finished in the cafe, but 80% will have been cooked off site. The economics of cooking from scratch just don't work any more, at least for the lunchtime trade where margins are lower than for dinner.

My understanding is that French sports bar-cafes open early for workmen, for cafe arrose. You find one that you like because of the people who go there, which can be the local builders gang or because they play chess online together in the downtime. It's unusual to go for the food. A toastie/croque is ambitious.

My ( French) cousins local village cafe/ bar is so intimidating he doesn’t go in, let alone me. It is full of inebriated farmers and terrifying barmaids and is guaranteed to go utterly silent if someone outside of their circle of regulars walks in. But maybe that’s because it’s Provence and the ceaseless influx of outsiders, be they French or foreign has resulted in an insularity and “ them and us” mentality.

The sports bar is so called because people go to bet there to bet on sports and on the horses. PMU (Paris sportifs et hippiques). They certainly aren't there for food, people just pop in for a quick drink and to buy a scratch card or bet (longer Sunday mornings) and they are by no means the equivalent of a lovely welcoming British pub!
I don't know any cafés that serve food, but we still have very good restaurants which to the menu at lunchtime for the tradesmen and anyone else who eat their main meal then. Some of them are very good, you can eat 3 courses including wine or cider and coffee for 11 - 13€. I rarely go to the UK but when British friends come out they are shocked at how cheap it is here. There are bad restos too, which use pre-prepared food but they don't tend to last long.
Of course all bars and restaurants have been shut since the end of October and will be until mid January at the earliest so it's irrelevant at the moment!

@Gwenhwyfar

"its usual in a british family to have curry, mexican; thai, on a weekly basis cooked at home"

Is it?

It is in my house, yes.

I would also like to know how people can tell whether something is high end by the way it drapes or how well cut it is. I can't say that I have noticed that some clothes drape better than others. Obviously I can tell if something is badly made, but it would have to be very badly made for me to notice. What am I missing?

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow your post made me think of the “ simple restaurant “ my grandparents used to go to, probably form the 60s till the 90s. Run by a pied noir family with an elderly Spanish waiter who memorised each order ( we think he couldn’t read and write). It did the classics and you got 4 courses and a pitcher of wine for a ridiculously reasonable price. The clientele was mostly office workers, workmen on local jobs and widowers. It had its codes, no shouting, acknowledging the dinners when you entered and left with a bonjour and au revoir. I remember a pair of young German tourists, all tie dye and piercings asking for a table and being greeted by a resounding “ Non “ by the owner. It closed sometime in the early 2000s and there is now a generic wine bar in its place. RIP Le Carillon.

@Ginfordinner

I would also like to know how people can tell whether something is high end by the way it drapes or how well cut it is. I can't say that I have noticed that some clothes drape better than others. Obviously I can tell if something is badly made, but it would have to be very badly made for me to notice. What am I missing?

Yeah I'm probably guilty of throwing that phrase around a bit indiscriminately. It's something I can only really judge by trying on, and it's why I'm not normally a fan of online shopping. I'm sure someone with more technical knowledge will explain it better but for me, something that drapes nicely has a bit of movement and follows the lines of my body. It doesn't cling but it's not rigid or stiff either.

Of course a lot depends on the garment and its function, e.g. with a shirt, I like fluidity and movement but normally not so much with trousers. So it might not be just about whether the item is 'high end. I'm not as insistent as some on 100% natural fabrics, as I think a smidgeon of polyester or viscose can sometimes help e.g. in some cottons, which can be very stiff.

I used to think it went hand in hand with whether or not the garment was well made, but then I got into Whistles for a while and found that their stuff draped really well on me but that the fabric and the constructon was often really shoddy e.g. seams unravelled and knitwear bobbled after a couple of outings.

I've been getting back into sewing again after a 30-year break and it's reminded me how important it is to choose the right fabric for the right garment. Basically the more I look into it, the more I realise how little I know.

I'm not a fan of online shopping either. I have to try clothes on to make sure they fit properly. Maybe I m getting it right after all then.

Yup, you may just have an instinct for it (draping) and be able to tell without even thinking.

@whataboutbob i just looked up pied noir and it sounds like a very complex heritage. Very interesting. I had come across it before but forgotten it long ago.

I think the drape comes from quality of fabric and cut of garment. And also fit - so a garment is always going to drape better if the shoulders fit properly, bust darts are in the right place etc...

Sooooo excited to try this tonight!!!

@Ginfordinner

I would also like to know how people can tell whether something is high end by the way it drapes or how well cut it is. I can't say that I have noticed that some clothes drape better than others. Obviously I can tell if something is badly made, but it would have to be very badly made for me to notice. What am I missing?

I don’t think you’re missing anything at all. The wittering about “high end pieces” is merely smoke and mirrors or a case of the emperor’s new clothes. People think they are missing something and so they all agree that everything is wonderful just in case. Sheeple.

It depends. I agree that “high end pieces” is a bit of a red herring. I was craving a “Le Smoking” style jacket and immediately thought of St Laurent, as he denied that style. The jackets shown to me started at over £1000 and were a poly wool blend in a fabric which was nice, but not a grand nice. I went to a high street French label and found a jacket which was better in hand feel and equally good in fit for about £300. St Laurent definitely is not worth the extra.

That being said, there are labels where the quality really is evident and is worth the price. Quality is in the fabric, seams, edging and not necessarily a name. I stick to some basic, boring styles (very French) because they deliver quality and timelessness and are worth much more than their price tag. I mean, how do you put a reasonable price on bag which has been in regular use since the 80s and still is very “in style” (originallly designed in the 1930s) and in great condition due to the workmanship?.

I love vintage pieces because they were made to last years and not a season. Levi’s caught onto this and started LVC, new based on vintage designs, which is a big hit. Sadly, there are few companies which offer great quality for reasonable prices. The ones which exist are great for basics, but quite...utilitarian in style.

Off the back of this thread I decided to watch some you tube videos on French style... I know I need to stop my current shopping / clothing habits and refine my style somewhat. I watched a couple of videos by a French lady but I have to be honest I was so bored I didn’t even make it to the end. One of the videos was about “ wardrobe essentials” - I didn’t need to see it to know what she was going to say.... a trench coat, a blazer, a LBD....yawn. It’s not that I don’t think those are good purchases for some people it’s just they’re so..... so generic. I doubt someone up in the Highlands needs a crisp white shirt more than a good sweater. A mum of toddlers probably doesn’t need a pair of classic courts more than another style of shoe. It also doesn’t take into account individual style... for someone a beautiful biker jacket would be a better investment than a trench.( I gave my vintage Burberry away because the double breasted style looked bad with big boobs and the colour was awful on me.) So it’s not that there isn’t useful advice to be had regarding quality it’s just the idea of rules “ A French woman wouldn’t do this......” is completely contrary to how I want to dress. Personal expression over chic-ness.

@Mominatrix
I find the Kooples is good for that kind of tux jacket style. Do you know the website Videdressing? I got a €400 Kooples suit on there for €60! Also check out Vinted

@stella1know the pied noir heritage has been quite influential in French culture, politics and life generally since 1962 when all the colonialists had to leave Algeria precipitately. A lot of actors, singers, businessmen etc have pied noir roots. Off the top of my head I can name philosopher Bernard Henri levy, singer Enrico macias, actor and comedian Guy Bedos and of course Albert Camus. A large part of the French Jewish population is also pied noir.

And more topically to this thread, Yves Saint Laurent was pied noir .

I don't know any cafés that serve food, but we still have very good restaurants which to the menu at lunchtime for the tradesmen and anyone else who eat their main meal then. Some of them are very good, you can eat 3 courses including wine or cider and coffee for 11 - 13€. I rarely go to the UK but when British friends come out they are shocked at how cheap it is here. There are bad restos too, which use pre-prepared food but they don't tend to last long

I bet you that any restaurant offering 3 courses for 11-13 euro is buying the food in. There is no way that the economics stack up otherwise - going to the market at 6, prepping all morning - very few restaurants can pay staff to be doing that and make a profit, these days. That's not to say that restaurants are just bunging pre-packaged meals in the microwave. Pre-prepared food for catering can be anything from chopped raw ingredients that are then cooked entirely on the premises (so the restaurant just saves on prepping costs) to fully prepared meals. Any decent restaurant will do a good chunk of the cooking themselves.

And it's not that the restaurant owners are trying to scam customers, but the relentless downward pressures on price from big chains and takeaways, and the rising cost of labour, especially in France, make the economics of traditional methods impossible. The prices that you are quoting are not much higher than what I paid for lunch in the 90s. How can any restauranteur make a profit when they have to absorb 20 years' of inflation, plus the much higher labour costs?