Influencing the Influencers - Disclosure in Social Media (Vol 3)

[FrustratedFrugal]

Continuing the threads that discuss blogging and Instagram

Vol 2

Vol 1

Know exactly what you mean botemp, what a luxury to be able to ship all your crap products back for full refunds, those lucky bastards don't know they're born.

Might have to started shopping with QVC again just for the 30 day returns policy!

Yes I also bought into Juno (stinks) and Ceramic Slip (broke me out).

Will I bloody learn?

Slightly off topic but does anyone know how you find a good dermatologist? I think I want to chat about a retanol but also my awful hormonal cystic acne. Nothing I've tried has helped.

Practically any qualified dermatologist will be able to sort your cystic acne out - they don't need to be 'good' as it's a basic part of their training. You just ask your GP for a private referral or look at your local private hospital yourself and book one. Given Retin A is also a treatment for acne, they will be able to talk to you about it. Usually costs about £200-300 for an initial appointment.

There are a lot of cosmetic dermatology clinics as well - they probably aren't employing fully qualified dermatology consultants but doctors or nurses who have done some cosmetic dermatology training. It's harder to know how good they are and they will want to sell you stuff too. Which means you have to have done some research about what products they have in their clinic or what you are genuinely interested in eg laser for pigmentation, Obagi is basically Retin A at a v high price etc which seems a rip off when you can buy it for £10 on the internet

I've spent the morning cleaning the house and listening to this K-beauty podcast. It's looooong, rambling and American, but great background listening. If you want to skip the low pH cleanser part, start at 00:21. These women actually read scientific papers on skincare and I have learned so much about ingredients from them.

It's refreshingly down-to-earth and they touch on some of the themes we have discussed here. Among other things they discuss cosmetics that don't work, marketing constrains on formulations, upscale bogus (a $1000 diamond scrub!), and what happens when brands start to making big bucks off their blog reviews when they are making little or no money from blogging. Someone says that when brands finally started approaching her, she was beyond the point of wanting to collaborate with them. And they say that as bloggers they get some unfair accusations as well. And it is also very clear that one of the highest quality K-Beauty blogs, Skin&Tonics, is run by a person who is extremely busy with an unrelated fulltime job and won't have much time for her blog in the future.

Thanks for those links Frugal.

I'm engrossed in this page, what a thorough review. Also like her Disclosure page
skinandtonics.com/whamisa-organic-flowers-deep-rich-essence-toner-review/

Yes, those snailcasts are great Frugal, I linked back to the episode on their stance on disclosure/earnings (episode 6 I think) a few days back which was really informative too. I really appreciate that their thirst for finding that next great product is matched by their appetite for knowledge that explains why certain products work and why others don't that goes beyond reading the INCI. They don't simply sample everything on the basis of what seems nice hoping for a star product. The pH in cleansers thing is an example of that and it's nice to see bloggers champion science rather than a specific product and brands responding to that need by developing low pH cleansers. It is a shame that others then profit on their gathered research but at the same time one of them seems to be doing the DIY thing and I have to say I'm quite intrigued by that Shark Sauce and Snowbang Essence.

I love asian skincare. It's purse friendly, world and I'm hoping the Asian beauty scene stays as positive as it is now but I doubt it. Superdrug have already started with introducing AB style products into their B.range.

Hmmm at BBB being lauded here. As someone who did a bit of PR by accident it left a very nasty taste in my mouth when she went absolutely nuts because Loreal didn't retweet something she posted and said she had made loreal on Twitter and complained to the higher ups- on the other side working with these bloggers gets exhausting because many as the example shown above are deluded. I don't read blogs anymore.
Caroline Hirons was always very brash with me and I still don't get her. I still remember her deleting/amending a post where she was describing a brand she consulted for that targeted asian women (ex1) and began with saying the founder made this line instead of "moaning about it"- yes because discussing the shameful way woc are treated in the beauty industry is "moaning" Caroline. Why don't they just stop bleating in about it and make their own things! Ugh why do they always want to be included!!!

It's a very odd industry and I now work in beauty in a whole different atmosphere, but that time was interesting to say the least.

Saskia very intersting! I'm sure AB will change, it already did as big retailers such as Sephora have jumped on the bandwagon, and I am sure lots of Korean brands are doing the same type of backroom maneuvring we have discussed here. But it is still good for budget-friendly cosmetics that perform - I've completely stopped buying Western high end stuff after I found AB.

But yes, I think many bloggers may go the way of the dinosaur as magazine-type advertorials only have limited appeal for the consumer. And moaning on Twitter and using suing and lawyers as a selling tool cannot be the best ways to attract new followers

I agree Saskia the AB scene is just as 'corruptible' as any other. It is encouraging to see though that they are taking a cue from what they feel are wrong blogger values elsewhere and banding together to set a standard by display with regards to transparency, disclosure, etc. AB is something that requires a bit of an education, both in terms of routines and identifying products but also in navigating the different countries and brand values. The blogs are in that essence crucial to your perception and initial learning. I'm sure this will change too as more financially invested parties start intermingling, hopefully it'll be easier to spot.

From my thus limited foray into AB there's plenty of issues I see with it too, there's a lot of instant result products that will do little in the long term beyond the array of cutesy packaging products (not to mention the accidental racism). There's liberal use of EGF and it's not always mentioned in promotional material as the novelty has already worn off locally. I'm yet to really form a definitive opinion on the use of EGF in cosmetics but I know it's heavily regulated here in the EU with reason. Having been to S. Korea in the past I know it's a highly developed and modern country, but its power structure is heavily influenced by industry interests and the handful of families that own them. Also they don't follow the same rules for the order of ingredient listing, etc. Seeing the growth opportunity, Chinese beauty companies will surely be joining the race soon in an already over competitive market, those products would raise even more red flags for me personally and might reflect poorly on the general perception of AB as it goes mainstream.

I know Jane from BBB isn't a PR favourite but to put it simply, she makes for a poor salesperson so her opinion on product can be taken at face value to me (and as everything online with a good pinch of salt). Does it make her an exemplary blogger in all facets? No, but I lack the resources to name another.

I too find AB fascinating, and have been pleased with the stuff I've tried (some night creams/ packs, essense and loads of lovely sheet masks), but as botemp mentioned I am weary of some of the ingredients, including indeed EFG, and have not yet had time or patience enough to fully educate myself on the intricacies of those INCI lists.
But, oh, they do know how to pamper you with GWP. Last time I ordered I got so many samples and even a free full size mascara!

Does anyone know of a link that lists common AB ingredients and what they really are?

I appreciated that Jane from BBB made her contribution here and shed her vision regarding transparency, but looking at her blog this morning and her latest collaboration, I wonder (and this is not a criticism but an honest inquiry) how do all her posts about MUR in the last few months fit this pledge for transparency in light of this collaboration, and the fact those past posts do not mention a partnership with said brand? Surely this collaboration has been a few months in the making? I, for one, have to now regard all those posts in a completely different light.
I don't follow her blog too closely, and maybe she has mentioned this in the past, so please correct me if I am mistaken.

AuroraPolaris: If you skip back to approx two years ago, I was the first person to write about MakeUp Revolution when it was a completely new brand and have written consistently about that brand ever since (if you go to the search bar on my site you can clearly see that's the case). I have never taken any money from MUR and the palette, as stated, works on a profit share basis.

Botemp: Thank you - you are right, I am distinctly not a PR favourite because I won't post favourable reviews unless there is a reason to do so - i.e. the product is (in my opinion) good.

Saskia8T: There is no secret in that I think brands, who utilise social media so heavily, should remember the 'social' part; the interactity and sharing aspect that brands benefit from so heavily but are often unwilling to return. I think to say I went nuts is an overstatement, but I do often ask for brands to do a sharing element and I am annoyed on behalf of all social players if they don't. L'Oreal was founded in 1909 - to suggest that I said I made the brand defies history and there is considerable embellishment in your contribution to the thread. If nobody makes a stand or has return expectations of brands, then brands continue to leach the blogosphere for all it is worth. I ask for fair-play from brands. No secret.

I've taken a lot of learnings from this thread (where trying to provide clarity seems also to be seen as an admission somehow of 'guilt'), but I won't start blogging defensively - I'm just carrying on as per, and also realise that trust is at such an all-time low that there is absolutely nothing I can say to appease those who have lost faith in blogs. I'm sorry about it and wish it wasn't the case. There are still, and will continue to be, amazing blogs out there that aren't commerical, that are 'real' and make a big contribution to helping other women choose their products wisely and armed with knowledge before they do so. I see why blogs and vlogs are being so heavily questioned and it's important that they continue to be scrutinised, and that readers and viewers choose their bloggers wisely. But, this is my last contribution to this thread: if you have questions, I am available across social media and happy to answer.

Jane I'm not embellishing it was something like "when brands forget who made them - or something to that effect. What you fail to realise is that the division that deals with blogger outreach in a large corporation is different to the division that do the actual social media posting. In large corps the bureaucracy is massive and no matter how many meetings and info is shared something will be missed Social media is now so big it's outsourced to other agencies.The poor person that didn't retweet your msg probably got a bollocking. It is a difficult balance trying to balance bloggers and then the customer something I always championed. Bloggers are getting x amount of free stuff. The woman on the street is spending out of pocket. Creating a social media strategy that balances the two is hard. It's complicated but that tweet was petty and it left a bad taste in my mouth and created even more headache for a stretched team. "Owing" retweets is ridiculous.

Anyhow AuroraPolaris, Hotel and Frustrated Frugal I was in Korea earlier this year and it is true their "chaebol" system in business is difficult from a western point of view. The smaller brands are receptive and willing to listen for instance in the case of offensive names and the govt is investing massively in their soft power to reach internationally. I'm not sure what the future holds, Japanese cosmetics and skincare has always been ahead but it just hasnt filtered through over here in a massive way. I am very curious and watching the road it takes. It can take almost a decade for things to rise up with large brands from a grassroots perspective which is where smaller brands can really come in and make headway- conditoner shampoos are only now being pushed mainstream- that's been in the online game for 12 years.

I love the beauty industry I do but it's a bloody hard place to be. Even on SH forums the whole interviews with makeup up artists who I know and have seen be monstrous to assistants and underlings and have a horrid rep in the makeup industry smiling and being lovely just makes you laugh and shake your head.

What can you do?

Thanks for your input Jane. Although my disenchantment with bloggers may be terminal, it's good to know that some of them are listening.

As for Twitter - I have to confess, I don't really understand why the corporate world bothers with it so much. I use it to listen to people who I think have something interesting to say but it would never occur to me to follow a company or brand. Am I hopelessly out of touch?

Aurora Fifty Shades of Snail has this reference page, it's far from expansive but it has the most standout ingredients I think. I've been contemplating buying the book by the Skin & Tonic blogger, from the preview it appears to have quite a substantial ingredients glossary.

I'm not expecting S. Korea to change their business model to suit me Saskia but it does make me wary when it comes to more controversial ingredients, anti-aging claims, and enforcing regulations. Part of me that also worries is the willingness of young companies to adapt so instantly to demand as their only mode of survival while competing very much on price. At the moment there's a bit of an anti-paraben movement and some have just responded by removing the parabens from formulas and not replacing them with anything else. I think Japanese skincare is very exemplary and a lot of that is down to tradition but also due to a very discerning population and a pride in industrial standards, but it doesn't move as fast. I do wish it was more easily available.

I think that type of behaviour is prevalent in any industry with a lot of creatives, Saskia. It isn't an excuse but it is pretty much the norm. My non-beauty/fashion industry is exactly the same. Creatives often lack the necessary business and organisational skills to make it on their own and vice versa, put the two together and you rarely produce pleasant people brimming with a whole load of resentment about who owns the success but they all know how to play nice in front of a camera. Sadly if all you want from them is to know how to put your eyeliner on straight it really doesn't matter to most people. I think it's also far more damning how many people work in these type of industries for free under the claims that there just isn't enough money to go around but the work experience is invaluable while treated like dirt.

Well, this is interesting ... webmasters.googleblog.com/2016/03/best-practices-for-bloggers-reviewing.html

botemp thanks for that link, though indeed it does not go into any of those "mysterious" AB ingredients I feel I know nothing about

jane thank you for your input. I actually think you have shown courage and made yourself a big service by joining this discussion. Like I amphasized above, I have no problem whatsoever with people earning a living from blogging - everyone should be payed for their work, and if you are good at it and if possible, your should also be well compensated. I am sure, though, that you can understand our uncertainly as cutomers and beauty obsessers lovers when things start to change as to make us uncertain about spending our money. As the question of future disclosure was discussed I thought of bringing up one about "retroactive" disclosure, if you will.
I also understand if you chose not to contribute to the discussion anymore.

Thoroughly enjoyed reading back over the three chapters! Very balanced views and some good suggestions on the way forward regarding reviewing products with credibility and impartiality.

Noted out of all the people discussed, good ol' Goss never came up? Do we believe his receipt posturing that he buys EVERYTHING he talks about? I don't buy it....he looks to be heavily involved with pams of London which he mentions very regularly. A similar relationship to caroline hirons and cult beauty? Do we believe him more as he is a makeup artist, well trained with loads of experience?

Just curious!

Xx

Soo, looks like it's all been kicking off elsewhere (Gurugossiper).

All kinds of exposes, accusations, bullying, disclosure of personal information, unfortunate mistaken identity. All just appalling fangirl ballix.

Most interesting thing there is information that the Hirons - Sunday Riley relationship is OVAH!

I thought of this thread while I watched this. I started reading Man Repeller years ago, I thought it was still just Leandra and a couple of interns. Watch I just to hear her talk about all the staff! Also interesting about collaborations/sponsored posts. $10,000 for an Instagram post.

Funny to see this thread pop up again since I had to think about it when I read Jane from BBB's post today about the stranglehold brands place upon bloggers to get their message out on their terms. Put me off the whole blogging thing and the brands that heavily rely on them all over again. It's disheartening that the only ones who place any importance on maintaining an independent voice are so scarce (incidentally why I've enjoyed Man Repeller too YesOfCourseAlways never really was about selling me fashion and even when it was, it was very tongue in cheek and overtly so. Just haven't been keeping up with it much lately, there was a little too much filler content for a while which I now know is just to get side traffic to the site).

What happened Splat? I sort of skimmed through it Guru Gossip scares me but all the links don't work, was there just a bunch of upheaval over that single post? I still had CH in my blog feed but that recent post where she listed an endlessly long list of things to review and why she won't review others was the thing that made me hit unsubscribe in the end. I wasn't interested in any of those prospects so no longer saw the point. The Sunday Riley thing struck me as very odd, especially since Cult Beauty and SpaceNK have been pushing it so heavily in their newsletters, I had to say I was rather surprised not to hear more noise about those products at launch but I'd assumed it was because I'd sort of cancelled out all that noise.

I've given up on blogs and Instagram. Who knows who sells what. Threatening readers with lawyers left such a sour taste too.

Incidentally, a local newspaper exposed astroturfing, people close to a major company planted posts on social media to influence a takeover. It made me think of this thread. They say we are paranoid. I don't think so - see a few articles on astroturfing here and here. If it is not happening here, then it certainly is happening somewhere else.

I don't think we're paranoid either Frugal, I think many of us were concerned that brands and other financially vested parties were taking over- the conclusion is they've long taken over and sadly it took us this long to figure out how far it's already reached with far more finesse than we suspected. The fact that I can't always spot it as quickly now means they're only getting better at it.

botemp, someone started a now-deleted tumblr* called carolinehironsexpose (which just looks WRONG ), and advertised it on GG. It was all the stuff that was on previous threads here, just slightly more condensed/manic/vitriolic.

Someone then tweeted this to CH, and lots of fangirls jumped to her defence. One of the tweets or Tumblr posts made use of a screen shot of YouTube comment someone had left post CH-ITB-with-SH, saying it wasn't interesting, she preferred the ITBs with Make Up Artists and Dermatologists, what with them being qualified doctors, not sales girls who'd done a facialist course (again, harsh, but nothing that hasn't appeared on previous forum posts here) - my understanding is that this was just a screen shot, nothing to do with the Tumblr creator.

However, the CH Fangirls identified the YouTube commenter, Isabella Brusati - who is a Change Management Consultant with a side interest in beauty (i.e. no one with a particular axe to grind, someone with a "real" job) - as the instigator of the expose. And JUMPED on her. The Tumblr person denied it was IB, and was told by CH "Keep this shit up and I'll post your phone number" - which is NICE. More denials by the Tumblr creator, and then guess, what, Isabella Brusati's phone number is all over twitter.

Her take on the whole thing can be read here. Lawyers contacted, posts deleted. I don't think there's been a single apology anywhere. The CH side of things comes out of it all looking dreadful, I think. But as I said above the most interesting thing is the dropping of the Sunday Riley brand, and the reinforcing of the ideas discussed here that it's all so shady.

• The whole tumblr, now deleted, has been captured and posted within that GG thread, so it looks absolutely bonkers

Jeez and they call us a nest of vipers! Jane if I were you, I'd be getting out. Take your talents somewhere else.

Incidentally, I hadn't been on Twitter for ages but went for a nosey around Hirons' page and couldn't understand a word of it Once you stop tuning in you realise what drivel most of it is.

Well it all kicked off spectacularly, Caroline doesn't come out of this terribly well.