Influencing the Influencers - Disclosure in Social Media (Vol 3)

[FrustratedFrugal]

Continuing the threads that discuss blogging and Instagram

Vol 2

Vol 1

[MrsTubbs]

Some of what iamnina said resonates with my experiences at the fag end of blogging, other bits not so much. The few bits that did were presented to show bloggers in the worst possible light. She glossed over or dismissed things that didn’t quite fit with that.

I’m not saying that she doesn’t work where she says she does. I’m not saying that some of what she says isn’t true, just that she had an agenda. I can’t really explain it. I’m sorry. All I can say is that I’ve been hanging around forums for more years than I care to think about and some of her posts made my spidey sense tingle.

Tubbs

[MrsTubbs]

This got posted on the other thread by a HatieKopkins:

^I've read both threads, in full. What I'm puzzled by is, if everyone loves transparency so much, why have iamnina's posts been taken at completely face value?

I know a bit about blogging (and I've read Sali's response to these threads too - incidentally she was fairly clear on Twitter that the Sarcoma UK accusations were on Facebook not here, btw) because of what I do, and there's a lot about iamnina's posts to take with a massive pinch of salt, but no one has done so. What she's posted has been accepted as 100% truth (even referred to as "fact", without anyone really knowing the source), and gone without challenge as a result. Why is that, I wonder?

It's unfortunate this thread isn't named "Beauty Blogger Issues" or similar - the title, and the (seemingly) quite slanted posts of one person in particular, do rather make it look like a witch hunt. Shame, as it's been fascinating to read what people really do make of blogs, and transparency. I've agreed with a lot of it, but I really do genuinely think that some of the "facts" the threads have been fed, and has chewed up and digested as "the truth" about the industry might not be all that they seem.

Some critical thinking about why iamnina (who allegedly works in the industry and profits from that very lack of transparency you're railing about as a result) is posting the things they are posting might be in order. Mumsnet posters have queried, and pored over every single thing Sali Hughes and Caroline Hirons have posted on the matter, but why not think a little deeper about why an industry insider would have an interest in ripping their own industry to shreds. And would stay anonymous to boot.

Social media agencies are creating the atmosphere everyone is hating, btw (and iamnina says she works for a company "like" Gleam), so why would a social media agency representative - as iamnina claims to be - be trying to blame the bloggers? Is there a social media scandal a-brewing behind the scenes that needs blame to be deflected, for example?

Just a thought!^

[FrustratedFrugal]

Sali had a hard time understanding why we would believe Iamnina rather than her. She also had a hard time understanding that these threads are not just about her See, the thing is, for me it is also increasingly difficult to believe anything what she and some big bloggers say.

I've observed lots of puzzling things: print magazines folding, their editors and stylists leaving, blogger portals and websites going up, product placements and marketing messages becoming ubiquitous, everything revolving around PR showrooms and press days, young pretty girls straight out of business school choosing blogging as their full-time career, popular bloggers quitting or shifting their focus.

None of this would be happening unless there was lots of money sloshing about. It is changing hands somewhere, someone is profiting. And it's a global thing. Nina gave us a backstory that connects the dots. It might or might not be true. But if bloggers are not upfront about what is going on, someone else will tell their story. Waiting for the next episode of Wikileaks

I see it like this: brands will always be there. We, their audience, will also always be there. The people who connect us change constantly. I don't have a landline any more, I don't watch TV or listen to radio, I don't read catalogues or clip coupons, I don't buy magazines. Blogs and Instagram were fun for a while, but I am growing restless. Maybe we've run our course.

Iamnina, if you are still around, I'm interested in hearing your side.

[FreiasBathtub]

Jane, thank you so much for coming back and for offering to address some of our questions. I have a couple to start off with - I hope they don't sound accusatory, I know in the context of the thread they might, but I'm genuinely interested to know your thoughts. Also - disclaimer - I've only dabbled in your blog so the answers might be totally obvious and I haven't found them - in which case big apologies!

1. Disclosure. I see that you elaborate on some possible consultancies: what would be helpful I think is to know who your clients are and what kind of work you've done for them. I'm guessing that often this will be covered by NDAs - where this is the case, do you think there's any scope to influence brands to allow a little more openness in the interests of building trust for your audiences?
   

1. Negative reviews: what's your take on this? Do you agree with other bloggers who've suggested the best approach is to 'just not give them page space'? Or do you share your thoughts on products you're not so happy with?
   

1. How could consumers encourage bloggers and brands to be more rigorous about disclosure and ethics? Your efforts to date seem to suggest that the ASA aren't particularly interested, so maybe this is something that needs to come from the bottom up. If so, what could we be doing differently in order to make this change more likely?
   

Thanks again! It really is appreciated.

[FreiasBathtub]

Oh and another one (sorry!) - what's your take on when the need for disclosure runs out? For myself, I would love it if when a brand, retailer, company, whatever, is mentioned on a blog, there was a link or hover box outlining any commercial relationships that the blogger has had with that brand/retailer/company, and when that relationship was. Maybe running out after five years or something.

[FrustratedFrugal]

I tried to pm iamnina to check whether her account still exists. Her account cannot accept messages - most likely it means that either she herself has deregistered or MNHQ has deactivated her account.

[FrustratedFrugal]

Freia excellent questions!

Featuresjourno thanks so much for posting. I'd love to read your blog but I fully understand why you don't have time for one. It would be fascinating though, I'd definitely read all the geeky bits where you debunk pseudoscientific claims. Hoping to see your stories somewhere! And I'd love to read well-researched stories that explore how social media influencers work and network. I have a feeling we haven't heard the full story yet

[Cizzbot]

JaneBBB,

I've just watched your ITB with SH. You actually discuss dishonest bloggers in it and about what may happen if the ASA start to look into said bloggers. You both clearly knew for some time this was a problem and there was going to be a backlash.

Great video particularly in light of recent events on here. I think it's worth a check out if anyone on here hasn't seen SH ITB with BBB. It's the last 15 minutes that the issue of dishonest bloggers is raised.

I do understand that you can't reveal who they are but I've a pretty good idea it's the gleam team gang.

[StillStayingClassySanDiego]

You can prevent pm's being sent to you if you wish and still be a member.

It does seem that Nina isn't coming back, that's a shame as 'she' wrote eloquently and did predict how she thought this might pan out. She wasn't nasty or personal about anyone, well as far as I could see anyway.

Nice to see Jane, I like her site.

There was something I wanted to ask her but it's gone right now, see you later maybe.

[Cizzbot]

frustratedfrugal,
Really liked your points re: pretty girls out of business school choosing blogging as a career.
Nina connecting the dots.

I don't read the likes of TB and the rest of the Pixiwoo hangers on who exploit teenagers for monetary gain with impunity. But these ( pretend ) youngster are, to me, the absolute worse. As adults we can spot a con eventually but teenagers just believe anyone who isn't their parent and I think if there is something about to happen ( some one questioned this earlier ) it is most likely to be litigation against these rich con artists.

[FrustratedFrugal]

Thanks Cizz! And if people wonder why we've questioned the people we have, they seem to cater to the S&B demographic and they have gotten a lot of traffic from this forum. So it's natural to question them first.

My DDs are into nail art videos on Youtube (sigh) They learn to search for videos before they can read and write, so I guess it's time to start the media literacy lessons Critical reasoning coming up next...

StillStaying good to know about pms!

[Floisme]

To be honest, I think the point above about taking iamnina at face value is valid. Personally I was trying not to ask anything that might lead her to incriminate herself but with hindsight, it did mean she had a very unquestioning hearing.

You never know who anyone is on the internet so it seems pointless to speculate. As I recall, the posts about Sali Hughes were extrarodinary. I can quite understand Hughes being gopping mad and I think she was fully entitled to defend herself in the most robust terms. I'm disappointed she chose to bring our gender into it ('forum of mothers'). And if she didn't want to get dragged into it on Mothers Day then why start the conversation? However - the general anger, I personally think we have to take that on the chin.

As frugal says, this arose because trust in bloggers has broken down. Hughes can blast me to kingdom come, but that alone won't fix my distrust. Sideswipes about missing the worst culprits are pointless unless you're prepared to call them out. If you stand with them, you'll be judged with them. Your choice.

I've looked at Hughes's website and couldn't see a single negative review. There were a few that discussed pros and cons of a product but still gave it the thumbs up. If I've got that wrong I hope someone will tell me. Othewise I will not be listening to any of Hughes' recommendations. As I've already said, I think it's a nonsense to call yourself a reviewer if you're only going to review stuff you like.

[botemp]

Jane, I was quite amazed to read in your comment that the ASA does not see the necessity of disclosing that money has changed hands if there is no creative input (I'm assuming this means a detailed brief with points that must be mentioned in order to receive payment) by the brand/agency.

1. Does this mean that if you suspect someone of not disclosing a clearly sponsored post that unless you possess a copy of internal documents between the blogger and brand/agency that prove creative input in exchange for payment there is no way the ASA will take any action against posts like these?

2. I'm also curious about the roles of agents, you've mentioned that you've had an agent in the past who was by your description more of a business facilitator who mainly acted if there were financial/contractual disputes on your behalf. Agencies like Gleam appear to be facilitating far more than this, functioning like a hybrid of PR and talent management, earning their keep from both parties by designing strategies and campaigns that incentivise sales across several platforms where we see the same product over and over again (please correct me if this is an inaccurate assessment). What has their influence been on how the blogging industry functions and operates now? Are they actively educating bloggers on how to handle ASA guidelines and possibly how to circumvent them? Is the lack of disclosure and transparency something that is preferred by brands or the agencies, or is it a combination of both?

Not a question, just a suggestion. I agree with Cizzbot about SH's ITB video with you. It's a great way of getting to know you and what you stand for as a blogger, especially in regards to disclosure and transparency. I think you should consider embedding it somewhere visible on your site, maybe in the sidebar like the other video that's there already or as part of your about me/disclosure page?

[internaldiscord]

the only thought that crossed my mind about iamnina was that she may have been working for an agency that competes with gleam?

i would love to know more behind the daily routines that are shared on Instagram. i have seen more than one account that share daily routines, and nothing else. how can you share your daily routine but not your face? how can anyone believe the variations are working for you? in any case they don't feel right to me so i choose to avoid.

[MrsCampbellBlack]

I still reckon iamnina was just sick of dealing with bloggers and this was her payback

[Larastheme]

Plot twist, imanina is a blogger

[StillStayingClassySanDiego]

Lara, eh?

[bigbuttons]

don't think we should be interested in conspiracy theories about iamnina

[FrustratedFrugal]

Botemp great questions!

Iamninagate would make a great reality show - Jerry Springer on acid toners

[MrsCampbellBlack]

I like it Lara. Iamnina only ever got the superdrug deals and really wanted Tom Ford

I spent an enjoyable 15 mins in space nk earlier looking and testing foundations and chatting to a lovely lady about which foundations we liked. We both had guerlain and the new laura mercier on our lists to try but both agreed the candlelit one was the nicest.

[botemp]

I did question for myself what iamnina had to gain by feeding us the information that she did several times and felt the accusations towards SH were of a different nature than previous comments. First introducing her by alluding to 'a journalist' and elaborating when others started asking more specific questions as it wasn't very hard to guess who she was referring to. She actively pulled SH into the conversation that was up to that point chiefly about bloggers. In that light SH is entitled to her anger with the entire situation in my opinion even if many don't like the manner in which she expresses that.

I'm sure I wasn't the only one with doubts as it evolved but when there is only one single source willingly dispensing the information that like Frugal mentioned connected the dots, confirming long held suspicions convincingly, you think twice about interrogating that single source of information in fear of it disappearing completely. If that was the purpose of the exercise for her then I guess she succeeded at our cost, rather ironically gaining our trust and exploiting it for her own use. Regardless the conversation is now being had and I'm glad people like Jane and Mrs Tubbs are willing to engage with us about it.

[Cizzbot]

SH has tweeted she has her own 'stall' on SHB linking to her page about this discussion. This makes me 😧😐

I don't want to see an adult discussion that's raising genuine concerns about loss of trust in bloggers, turned into a playground gang fight. Instigating a ' pick-a-side' mentality is so far off course it beggars belief.

SH this isn't about you. No one is having a go at you or SHB. Quite the opposite. Many comments on here are supportive of your clean house. Is Jane going to be the only beauty blogger to actually understand the issues being raised?

[Cizzbot]

Ha ha iamnina really wanted Tom Ford.😄

[FrustratedFrugal]

Maybe she really wanted Gucci...
Or maybe she wanted to get even with her bitchy ex boss

My very non-insider understanding is that a lot of blogging these days really is content marketing. First, they build an audience by delivering free content. Then they gradually start monetizing by selling carefully tailored products and services (a beauty box anyone? ). Followers spread the content by sharing it on social media and by word of mouth - this way whatever is being sold can go viral.

Some content marketers want you to become more aware of a brand or try new products - and then gradually become loyal repeat customers. Ultimately, they want this to drive sales. Some examples of content marketing here - hope it is a legit source.

MN is also involved in content marketing. We come here for support and ideas, we see ads and are offered products, and we stay because we like the place, and we provide user-generated content...

In Scandinavia, blogger management companies usually involve marketing and media people. They employ bloggers and connect them with PRs and campaigns. Many blogger management companies are owned by traditional media houses. The print magazine folds but its name lives on as a blogger portal. Bloggers often renegotiate their contracts and switch portals. It can get messy too - I've understood that the portals can demand things that bloggers don't necessarily want to do.

Very curious how this works in the UK.

[Larastheme]

Maybe MNHQ intervened and blocked nina?

The only reason SH made that post is because it was heavily discussed on MN, if things were clear from the begining and not just about her but with all beauty bloggers this Whole fiasco would not have happened,


I've only once went through CH blog and found it too confusing and full of very expensive beauty products with zero proven results,

Even while using the most intensive beauty therapies like fillers,chemical peels, Botox, even face lifts! you would need at least 2-4 weeks to see good results, and with the most highly concentrated vitamin C or ratin A, you would need at least 4-8 weeks to see some improvement, so how can a blogger prove that these expensive products work in a matter of days?

I totally agree with mrsCB if i start seeing wrinkles or feel I need fillers, I'd rather spend £250 on Botox or fillers with a good dermatologist than buy lotions that don't work,

A top dermatologist advised me to spend money on makeup, not skincare pharmacy brands are good enough, but with makeup you need to buy good brands not just for the ingredients but it has to do with the preparation process and shelf life,Some of it expires and start smelling foul pretty quickly, which can be very harmful to the skin,