Influencing the Influencers - Disclosure in Social Media (Vol 3)

[FrustratedFrugal]

Continuing the threads that discuss blogging and Instagram

Vol 2

Vol 1

[botemp]

Thanks for the recap Splat, I will totally own up to reading that as 'sexpose' and coming out a little disappointed...

So yes, that tumblr person is a bit of a nuisance but releasing someone's phone number? Whether you did it personally or simply not actively prevent it, guilty or not, I just can't even...

Anyhow what it has confirmed for me is there needs to be some sort of very basic and neutral info on skincare routines somewhere to refer too here on MN. I constantly see posts popping up on the S&B boards with questions on building a routine, acid toning, etc. they'll get a bunch of different information thrown at them (some good, some bad, mostly contradicting if you take it as a whole) and people scurry off more confused than when they started with a link to CH cheat sheets and Paula's Choice when they just wanted someone to tell them which products to use and where to start.

[IAmSashaFierce]

I'm a bit late to comment on this as I've been contemplating what to say. I've followed this thread from the beginning. Although before anyone says I'm not a regular poster etc, I have been on mn for years but stopped posting a year or so ago after becoming extremely disillusioned with the site.

I originally didn't feel comfortable with these threads as I'm a bit fan of Sali Hughes and Jane and I didn't really doubt their integrity. I was also pretty appalled at some of the personal comments about CH and the way in which some posters were so easily lead by those saying what they wanted to hear regardless of proof or truth.

Its important for me to say I really like Sali Hughes, I've met her at an event and I read most of her non-beauty writings. I like her political views, many of her life views and her writing style. I'm a guardian reader and a reader/listener of The Pool. I don't participate in her forum but I read some of the articles on there. She said she only found out about all this on the Sunday and yeah I'd be pissed off when on a day I'd planned with the kids or relaxing I had to spend time defending and frankly fighting for my livelihood and reputation, which if you're a single mother with a mortgage and kids would have to take priority, thats just common sense. (Feel I should get out any bias as seems to be sore topic on this thread).

From my perspective, initially as a reader or what may be described as 'fangirl woman' and also as someone who has been involved with trend prediction and fashion previously striking a balance as a blogger is hard. Not in the grand scheme of things, we're all aware they aren't exactly going down the mines and yes the majority of us work hard, so boo hoo if they're diamond shoes are too tight right?! In reality it isn't that simple.

Firstly, those who see blogging as ordinary unskilled types in their bedrooms being honest and writing with a true voice, that is almost a bygone era. There is still some of it about but mainly its died a death, partly through monetisation and secondly through audience driven content. The majority of readers now expect more, they want it across all platforms, they want good websites (how many posts on here have mentioned giving up on CH due to clunky site), they buy into the aspiration and enjoy it and follow it. I'm not saying that people are asking to be mislead but the technology has moved on for various reasons and most of us are happy with that. If the blogs went back to poorly taken photos and swatches with regular infrequent updates and no continuity across different platforms it wouldn't work and I think most of us can understand that. The demand is there, whether we've been hoodwinked into it or not, the demand is now there and maintaining a blog/vlog at that level and quality isn't cheap or time consuming.

Secondly, imagine you are a blogger who discovers a product either you're sent the item or you purchase it, you find other products from the brand you like and become a fan of the brand, blogging/communicating about them regularly. Next the brand approaches you and asks if you want to work with them or if they can pay you to repeat your positive views again. Being a brand you like with some products you think work and a blog to fund I think most would accept, but I don't see that devalues previous reviews. I also think people do have the right to change their mind, I hated the first LRP items I tried, they broke me out and seemingly did nothing and I was very disdainful, I now have 3 as regular staples in my routine. Same with scrubs, hated them they gave me eczema and I banned my kids from them but now I use a Korean (I think) one regularly.

Thirdly, in regards to receiving product, yes if you're sent something there is an increased chance of writing about it because you actually have it as opposed to having to source it and make the decision to buy it but just because something was 'gifted' it doesn't make the product any better or reliable. Through magazines I subscribe to, my job and a shopping service I use, we get a fair few samples. Some are crap and unless spectacularly bad they never get a mention again, the great things or the different things I talk about, most people are the same.

Furthermore, I don't think in any job I've worked in or the majority of business, people intentionally make enemies and I don't doubt blogging is the same. I may use a service or a freelancer and not love their work, I don't slate them, I just don't use them again. Remember so many beauty brands are also linked, you may love Kiehls and do work with them but hate The Body Shop, you're then biting the hand that feeds you and challenging PRs who also have targets and jobs to keep. It seems ill mannered and lacking forward thinking to write bad reviews if you want to work in an industry long term.

Same with recommending expensive products, yes it would be great if all the best products were budget friendly, but they aren't. It isn't an 'influencers' responsibility to price an item and we should actually be trying to hold beauty brands responsible for

Finally, as Jane has pointed out there are such disparities between what this thread expects and the ASA, it seems to me as with the PCC we should push for those bodies to be more stringent and investigatory. There should be more awareness of reporting to the ASA and that they will then have powers to enforce or at least influence when something is clearly wrong.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am strongly against the way so many people have been mislead. I just can't see that there is a way for everyone to be happy or that blogging can be run as an industry and maintain the absolute integrity that is being demanded. I do think many people would be happier if all blogs had a page listing the products they were sent each week and the brands they currently work with as well as those they have previously worked for.

This thread is important because it has clearly helped lots to understand the power structure, we are no longer many of the bloggers customers, the large companies are.

Its a typical trend arc and at this point there is saturation meaning blog following is either going to drop off or adapt. From what I've noticed figures have been falling, subscribers aren't growing so quickly and the branching into other areas is an attempt to not just make money but stabilise the brand. However, this area moves fast, after a while when this evolves again, possibly driven by audience demands and expectations, certain people will fall by the wayside. A brand cannot be massively commercial and uncommercial. Their goal is profit and it usually always will be. AB is cool and new to many westerners but as pointed out big brands are already on it.

In my mind the majority of the blame is with the brands and instead of ripping apart blogs we should contact the brands and PRs and give them a hard time, don't say I won't read CH or Vivianna, don't buy the product from the brand you believe to be using underhand tactics.

As an aside to the longest ever post, EVER. I HATE the term influencer, I've tried to avoid using it as much as possible in this because to me influencers are only that by your choice. Estee Lalonde doesn't influence me because I choose that she doesn't, I feel she has poor style and bland make up. Same way I like Lucy Mangan and am therefore influenced by her like of pretty nails. The women I work with are my biggest influencers I undersntad much of this is subconscious brainwashing or whatever you want to call it, but part of this supposed revolution is going to need to be "talk to me about what I like, not what a brand says I should like" selling through fear cannot stand if you want even an ounce of the integrity mentioned on this thread.

[IAmSashaFierce]

Fuck, did not realise how long that was, how many errors or how there is so little flow. Apologies for the stream of conscious. I think its probably time I went back to not posting again.

[FrustratedFrugal]

Interesting story Splat, and really scary too. I'm not a GG follower but don't disagree with many of the points they are making.

I think many bloggers forget they are a medium. How many of you still visit MySpace pages I could pick up a free Metro paper on the bus, and our local newspaper is desperate for new subscribers, so they are constantly offering free trials. But few people are interested. And the young people at work don't get Twitter at all - and I think it is a concern for the company. Who says that cannot happen to bloggers? We'll find new channels that we prefer, and advertiser will follow.

[Floisme]

Sasha I enjoyed your post and I agree with some of it. But I can't get past this bit:
It seems ill mannered and lacking forward thinking to write bad reviews.

Huh?
Giving a crap product a poor review is bad manners?

Please tell me I've misunderstood you because otherwise we're so far apart I just don't know where to begin.

[IAmSashaFierce]

Floisme, it may be that we're on a very different page as I know from your previous posts you feel very driven in regards to negative reviews. Whereas I'm not that interested.

However, to clarify my earlier post, the comment on bad reviews being ill mannered is meant in the context of forging relationships within the industry. I don't mean that it will offend sensibilities and be considered rude, I mean, as I said, if you want to work with people long term its poor networking, poor conduct, poor levels of professionalism. To me it seems more savvy to say nothing than tear people down. Through this thread I've heard lots of blogging being a job and those who do it therefore being answerable in regards to their professionalism. But if this is a professional situation they have to behave in that way and maintain a high standard of conduct to keep their place in the industry.

I don't expect people to bite their tongue, but I'm acknowledging if you want to work with brands, be able to inform of new launches, get products to test etc you have to create and maintain relationships with those brands and the PR and I don't see how we can expect that to run concurrently with negative reviews.

I'm quite content to for a journalist or blogger I read to test a product and tell the brand they didn't like it and they won't be recommending it. I know if I'm looking at a new supposedly fantastical product and I can't find a word from my favourite writers, it most likely won't fulfil its promises.

My final comment would be that I definitely see bloggers as beauty writers effectively journalists not critics so I'm not looking for reviews as such, just to hear about great products and new launches. Once again I feel that blame lies with brands and retailers who delete reviews, like Sephora, that is a specific platform to rate a product out of 5, to then remove the invalidates the whole system. If you create a review section you have to shoulder the negative too. Boots doesn't delete reviews but I would like to see much more active reviewing from consumers and retailers enabling this, then you can get a good cross section, not one person saying it didn't work for them.

[Floisme]

I'm not in favour of tearing people down. I'm in favour of honest opinions.

But it's up to bloggers to sort this out. I don't follow them any more and the sun still rises every morning.

[FrustratedFrugal]

Sasha you make your point compellingly. For me, a consumer, though, it feels like bloggers are hacking off their right hand in exchange for a mutually beneficial relationship with brands. People who do infomercials do that too, and that was also why you rarely saw any good beauty advice in magazines. If someone is only able to say 'it's packed in a lovely jar' and 'it smells lush', she's not really adding value.

I'm personally mostly interested in critical opinions. I can see what's new by browsing the store and by listening to sales pitches. I want to hear whether products really work and what both the immediate and long-term experiences are. I'm interested in hearing what people would buy and rebuy with their own money (and on a limited budget).

[botemp]

Sasha it was pretty clear what you were trying to say so no worries I think most of us on this latter thread weren't all that pleased with what was said here or there about a variety of people but that there was enough value to try and carry on this conversation without the personal allegations and vitriol.

I think a bad product deserves a bad review and a good product a good review, be it on a blog or retailer website, but what I'm mostly looking for is balance. Simply tearing down a product for sport wouldn't interest me either and would open up the door for brands getting negative reviews out on competitors. If a blogger chooses not to feature bad performing products in order to pay the monthly bills, letting noticeable silence speak of their disapproval, I have no issue with that, it's a choice and they will have to accept that some of their readership will hold that against them. The problem is the term 'review' is being grossly misappropriated. I hate to bring up the blue oil again, but not only was that pushed by people far too young to be concerned with anti-aging at a customer base that had no need for an anti-aging oil, actual users simply aren't complimentary about it. Personally I find it bad manners of bloggers to push a poor performing or even mediocre products and present it as 'good' or 'amazing'. That to me is selling, not reviewing. I do feel for them, the balance of being a professional and progressing vs. maintaining where you started simply isn't going to please everyone while their future is so uncertain. I admire Jane for sticking to her principles so strongly all these years but I see her as a rare exception and she pays for it dearly in certain ways. SH has a unique position that allows her certain liberties but less so in other areas but I think both these women sort of knew where to plant their flag when they started while most bloggers probably had to make it up as they went along.

Of course the medium progresses, I still remember when most bloggers worked anonymously and that granted them that independent edge and made it exciting to read. I sort of stopped paying attention for a few years in between and came back to find it as it is now, a sort of a reality show version of a magazine, it's 'real life' but not really and it's all rather homogenous and bland. Suddenly they are called influencers (I loathe this term too!) while in truth they've influenced very little with me, my interest in blogs has always been about learning something new and gaining new perspective, not so much finding a new product.

Bloggers are a separate form of media now and if they want to continue to be taken seriously they'll have to set some sort of self imposed standards, but like you I see little future for blogs as they operate now. They either find outside investment and become startups like Into The Gloss and Man Repeller and transform into large media outlets and/or diversify in other ways. The individual/personal blog surely is coming to an end and maybe that isn't a bad thing. Expressing your personal identity as an amalgamations of brands and products to pay the bills seems a rather vacuous existence and must become tedious, and probably better suited to instagram where perceived artifice is sort of a given, and even that platform will fall out of favour soon enough.

While I agree bodies like the ASA, should be more pro-active and are massively behind, the internet as a giant unregulated body complicates it greatly. Loopholes will always be found and as long as there's an abundance of free content it'll remain harder to convince people it's in their interest to pay for things. At some point this will change, hopefully, but at the moment it all feels like a very expensive lesson and we're yet to be presented the bill.

And now I've gone on for far too long... sorry

[Queensheba01]

I understand both points of view and certainly know what Sasha means about maintaining good relationships with PR's/Brands.

I tend to go by the rule of thumb that if there's something I'm not personally keen on, like a recent haircare duo received, I will discuss the product in an editorial style (which has always been my aim to provide editorial with a personal touch) take some pics and talk about the product from an unbiased point of view and perhaps why it didn't work for me - but who it might work for.

If I particularly love it I will talk with a much more subjective tone and provide evidence as to why it's worked for me. This way, I keep everyone happy as the reader is informed about a product and they can decide if it's right for them based on whom I've discussed it may be suitable for and the PR gets coverage, ok it may not be ravey but it's informative with swatches where possible.

Everyone has a unique experience with a product- like Good Genes for example which I tried from a sample sachet and loved what it did to my skin to the point where I used it the morning of my wedding. Big risk for me but I tried it and I liked it. Further investigation has shown that I can get a similar product for less such as Paula's Choice where they have ripped apart every product and offered alternatives. If I hadn't researched myself, I probably would have just bought the damned expensive SR one.

Tbh I've not tried many products which are so bloody awful that it needs to be mentioned. I've tried stuff that I didn't care for such as Makeup Revolution makeup which I personally feel is cheap sh*te - but who's to say the next person trying it won't love it.(as many people do love MUR) I won't rave about a product I don't care for but I won't slate it just because it wasn't ideal for me. Trying to be unbiased and honest is a challenge!

Enjoying this thread though it's very eye opening.
x

[Floisme]

I won't rave about a product I don't care for but I won't slate it just because it wasn't ideal for me.
And yet you will rave about it if you do like it?
If I particularly love it I will talk with a much more subjective tone Even though, as you say, it's all subjective anyway?

That's hardly unbiased then is it?

Don't you see, this isn't about tearing a product down just for fun. It's about showing your readers that you're not in anyone's pocket. That's what I call 'being professional'.

[PhreshOffTheRunway]

Hi all,

I’m completely new to MN, and I’ve just gone through reading all three threads on blogging/social media disclosure. It’s fascinating to say the least.

I didn’t find the threads vile or bitchy, quite the contrary, most people were measured and while CH and SH may have been used as examples, the general discussion has been more about disclosure.
I thought it was pretty disgusting of a few people telling others to “lawyer up”, this is an internet forum ffs!

I don’t have an issue with affiliate links; like someone said above, I don’t mind a blogger getting a commission off of an item that I discovered through them.
I also don’t see a disclosure problem in fashion blogging, because a skirt/dress/bag/etc, I can see what they look like, and decide myself if I want to buy them or not. It’s kind of what you see is what you get, though reviews of quality are great and appreciated (shoutout to Sophie Shohet because I love her reviews).

Skincare is a different issue altogether - I’ve been following CH for years and have come to trust her, but lately the blog posts have felt like ads/product placement, which made me bored and annoyed (which is what brought me here). Even if her posts are not in any way paid for, the fact that they SEEM that way is a problem.
And @botemp you mentioned me (weird reading about myself haha) as the person who was told that they overexfoliated. I’m definitely looking into it now, as I actually see no difference in using acids vs not. Actually, it happens very rarely that I see any difference at all with ANY product… I keep hoping to find a miracle. I even tried Azelaic Acid from my derm and it did nothing at all.

As people have mentioned, the main issue is trust, and the abuse of trust. How do I know that a blogger really likes a product? That a review is completely honest?
Between biased Beautypedia (because while no one mentioned them, I also partly dislike their snarky reviews), and Caroline, I’m actually quite confused about the science. One says no, the other says yes… so who can I believe?

I’m not bothered by the brands themselves, they are doing what companies do, which is advertising and trying to get people to buy their products. It doesn’t make the products bad. I really like May Lindstrom for one, and SR. (I’m also really into NIOD at the moment).

I also understand the necessity of bloggers to receive an income, there was a YouTuber discussion about this a while back, kind of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” - they spend hours creating content, filming, etc., it’s basically a full-time job, but as soon as they try to get some revenue out of it, they are called sellouts and lose subscribers. It isn’t fair, because very few people are able to spend that kind of time for free.
(Sorry I can’t find the link to the article, if someone wants it, I can do a more thorough search)

I at end of the day, what I want is reviews and recommendations I can trust. Do I really need that La Mer oil for £120 (or howevermuch it costs)? Is it really better than a SR oil, or a Clarins oil, or a X-brand oil? Or can I get a different (cheaper?) oil for the same effect?
Why is Chanel's skincare being mentioned but not Dior/or whatever? CH mentioned Armani not long ago... (again a product not available in the UK yet)
How does it compare to LRP or other similar products? Why are we talking about this instead of something else?
I get that bloggers can't review everything, but I hate that they rave about a product but then never use it again - if you found something magical for your skin, wouldn't you keep using it?

In unrelated gossip, I wonder what happened with CH and Sunday Riley...she said it was nothing against the actual products, but then went and edited the post about Luna Oil to be less complimentary.... eeeeeh. I have ethical issues with this.

[Ayala]

PhreshOffTheRunway I may be extremely late in replying to you but i felt the need to say that I agree with everything you said. Blogging was supposed to be about honestly and trust, an alternative to sales assistants more concerned with their commissions than their customers and mainstream media with their very own agenda. I find it disappointing that bloggers are slowly becoming a new form of what we turned to them to get away from and despite readers/subscribers being the reason most of them can even call this their job, they're loyalty seems to lie with the brands who sponsor them. I also find it disappointing the effort so many have gone to to try and justify this and have gone as far as to threaten and make others feel guilty simply for voicing their opinion.