How do you give yourself permission to look good?

[BabCNesbitt]

This isn't for the women who've always invested in their appearance and for whom taking care of their looks is as automatic as looking after their health - who've never questioned whether it's OK to spend money on clothes, skincare, etc.

It's for women like me who perhaps grew up with mothers who thought make-up was for vain women who clearly didn't put enough food on the table for their kids.

Or maybe you grew up with a version of feminism that disdained make-up, but even though you don't necessarily hold to that you still feel a bit guilty about being interested in it.

Or you've just internalised the idea that spending money on yourself - on decent clothes that will last, on skincare that isn't 2.99 from Superdrug, on makeup from department stores rather than the supermarket - is inappropriate now you're a mum.

How do you get over that guilt? If you have, how did you do it - what did you tell yourself? And if you haven't, why not?

(And actually, if you've never felt any guilt about it, why do you think that is?)

What Mignonette said.
I was going to say exactly that.
The more power women get in society, the more ridiculous and disabling/minimising the fashions get.
I realised sometime ago that the women that I most admire are quite large, powerful women; Jenni Murray, Dawn French and that wonderful Iranian woman whose name I always forget. The one who wears fantastic bright clothes and does all the work for a children's charity.
Someone once said that if women stopped fretting about their size and embraced who they are, and what they are able to achieve, the world wouldn't know what had hit it.

Camila Batmanghelidjh is her name. I agree with you completely. If we could take our real place and space....

I have just had a (very small) epiphany whilst getting dressed. I'm only going out to meet a friend for coffee, so no need to go over the top and I've just put a t-shirt and maxi skirt on. DD1 said it needed a necklace, but as soon as I put a necklace on I felt over-dressed and too try-hard. How weird is that?

Anyway, in the light of this thread - I've kept the necklace on, even though I feel over-dressed now!

This is such a fascinating thread.

I definitely identify with the problem of feeling as if it's frivolous and selfish to care about clothes or whatever - that's how I was brought up. And I think it is terrible. I do see the argument that lots of fashion and make-up is not terribly healthy and there are big feminist implications. But I think what needs to happen isn't that we just say 'right, we must pretend we don't care about any of it', what needs to happen is that we end up doing things that make us feel happy.

This sounds daft, but I try to think in terms of 'will this make me feel really happy when I wear it' rather than 'does my arse look huge/can I see my flab' etc. Obviously I don't manage it all the time but you can push yourself into being positive about it. And I also try to show my mum that you can enjoy clothes, because she manages to be both very sniffy about how frivolous it is to care, and at the same time she desperately wants to look good and feels she doesn't. It's very sad. I don't think that is a good way to be.

The whole idea that fashion is shallow is just another way of making women feel bad about themselves, as if you somehow couldn't possibly be engaging the same bits of your brain as you do when you're looking at art or architecture or anything else visual.

Btw, pag, I love your posts. Your must be a brilliant mum to your DD.

I used to have high self esteem and would spend money on myself, not because I thought spending money in itself was good, but because I felt like I was worth it.

Nowadays I don't feel like I am worth it, I'm last on the list of priorities. And the biggest indicator of that is how little attention I pay to my appearance. I'm aware that sounds shallow, but if you compare me in the past to now, back then I was all extravagant clothing and perfect makeup, nowadays I am plainer than plain. As if I shouldn't take up any attention, as if I should just vanish.

Oh, love.

That's awful. Nobody isn't worth it.

It's not like perfect makeup is the be all and end all, but it's horrible getting into that state where you're effectively saying to yourself you shouldn't be visible.

I need to make some dramatic changes to my life, step one is sticking a bit of red lippy on every day. Can't be invisible with red lippy. I want to be this girl again, not the invisible woman.

Sounds good!

(I say that as someone who can't stand the feel of lipstick, but I know where you're coming from!)

That picture is lovely.

Great thread!

It was the influence of one good friend in particular that got me over the guilt of paying attention to my appearance. She and I used to spend hours trying on clothes and experimenting with make up and having a giggle. All sounds very adolescent I know but this all took place in my mid-late twenties!

Before seeing her (an intelligent, career-oriented woman with a fab boyfriend and a good social life) have fun with these things, Id sort of internalised the idea that wearing make up was somehow a feminist betrayal.

But now I just think, sod it, I like looking good and dressing well, and I work hard for my money, so why shouldn't I spend it how I like?

Just came across this!
I keep thinking I'll buy something nicer when I'm slimmer, happier, taller, prettier...
Of course it never happens.
I was never the pretty one - my sister was, I was the one who read books.
I know it's that that holds me back.
Funnily enough I'm great with makeup and perfume, I know what suits me and can choose.
Clothes - no.
I'm a complete and utter idiot.

That is a lovely picture!

The other thing I think I have with make up is, it feels like a mask, which comes off and then I'm still left with me, so I'd rather just be how I am so as not to feel disappointed. A bit like when I used to home dye my hair. I had done it for about a year, and then for one reason or another I couldn't do it, and I was actually really shocked by all the grey hairs. I decided then that I didn't want o be shocked like that again, so decided to let myself just go grey and feel okay about that. I feel quite good about that decision, even if people like my aunt think I should hide it.

Getting older is meh, but I've just realised that I'm comfortable with not fighting against it. But I don't judge others for doing whatever they do to make themselves feel better.

Actually Mum your attitude towards going grey is a healthy one. I love grey hair. Thinking about make up as something fun, to play with might help you get over the mask thing. Remember how little girls and boys play dress up? That attitude is a good one. It should be fun. And it is OK to make the decision not to wear it too.

Murder Yes get that red lipstick out. Such a simple and fabulous way to feel more present. Nothing wrong with that at all.

I do see the argument that lots of fashion and make-up is not terribly healthy and there are big feminist implications. But I think what needs to happen isn't that we just say 'right, we must pretend we don't care about any of it', what needs to happen is that we end up doing things that make us feel happy.

Really agree with this. I'm not a fashion and make up person (can't stand the feel of makeup and can't be bothered with fashion). And outside of work I wear a very boring casual uniform (involving lots of fleeces!). BUT I'm very happy with it, and I make an effort to have well fitting stuff that coordinates, in colours and cuts that suit me. I don't try to hide. I don't feel sad about it, or not worth it. I have nice stuff that I like that I can dig out when I need to, and I like to feel appropriately dressed for any given occasion, but I don't find that dressing up really makes me feel better about myself really.

Anyway, the point really is is that (on my rare forays to S&B) I really dislike the threads that start with someone saying they feel frumpy and mumsy and asking for help, and then it turns into a game of 'lets define mumsy' and then everyone spends pages tittering about bootcut jeans and 'mum boots'. There's always an absolute assumption that anyone who dresses like that MUST be miserable, MUST secretly yearn to dress differently, MUST be dressing to hide and MUST have low self worth.

I am a feminist, and I'm particularly fascinated by the role of female appearance in society and I suppose that informs some of my choices, but I don't not wear make up because I'm a feminist. I just don't like the feeling of it, can't be bothered, and I then find that experience interesting when I think about attitudes to female appearance.

What I'm trying to say, in a very long winded way, is that yes, the key thing is that we do what makes us happy. High heels and red lippy, or bootcuts and mum boots. It shouldn't be about feminism, or about social pressures, but just being happy. Likewise, if someone is sad about how they look/dress and wants to change that's just as important, but it's important thay they change in a way that makes them truly happy, not just to 'conform' in some way.

Dp has just asked why I am wearing this necklace!!! Shall I kick him?

murder get that red lippy on and party! I may do the same - used to always wear red lippy, then I got all uptight about maybe my teeth weren't white enough or perfect enough to carry it off. I started to feel really self-conscious about wearing it - like I was too visible.

I agree with all that Woozie said. I do think its about what makes you smile when you go out in the morning. That might be jeans and a fleece or a frock and red lippy. What we wear shouldn't be based on other people's rules and what size we are. We are all worthwhile, valuable people. Clothes and make up should be fun. I can't stand all this tittering over mum jeans etc. Who put them in charge anyway?
I have some summer dresses that I love. I haven't worn them as I think I look fat in them (I feel I can hear the tittering behind my back). But do you know what, I'm going to put one on, put on my lippy and a smile, and go out. In public. My god the nerve!!

Remus LTB! Or, you could go and put on two or three necklaces. Lets see what he says then

Also just wanted to reply to this:
My DH is wonderful and will always tell me to buy what I want (within reason) and that I look nice. Problem is, he tells me I look nice when I know I probably don't (he has no style either!) and tells me I look as beautiful in my scruffs as when I've spent an hour trying to dress up- a lovely sentiment and I love him for it, but it doesn't really give me an incentive to bother really.

I really think what your DH is saying is true. Women (even those who don't necessarily follow trends particularly) are SO good at reading all the tiny subtle social indicators given off by any item of clothing. Your DH will be oblivious to all the reasons like that why your 'scruffs' are scruffy, and will see something like a colour that suits your eyes, or a cut that accentuates your figure. Or he'll just find you so attractive you literally could be wearing a anything even it wasn't especially flattering to you, and he just sees the woman he finds really attractive.

Really interesting thread and I like the point about not having to conform but doing what makes us happy. It's the pleasure we take in seeing young children dress up for fun, they don't care what you think they look like they just enjoy it. I want to strike this balance for my dds, I grew up with a granny who. thinks how you look is the most important think - visiting me in hospital after I had dd1 she asked when I was going to wear my contacts again instead of glasses, I find that a skewed sense of priorities ! I also have a mum who is scandalized by the price of things and makes me feel guilty about spending my own money. She has been recently shocked by me buying three dresses in 2 months - I've just started working again and its baking hot I need them. It extends to everything though, holidays, spending money and time on exercise everything is subject to sarky comments about gallivanting , my dh says she's just trying to make jokes but it is wearing.
One aspect where I do feel guilt is knowing that so many other people, UK and abroad, have so much less disposable income, yes I earn my money and( and dh earns his) but its only luck that we are in the overall situation we are. I worry what I woukd do in other circumstances. Tgat's where much of my guilt cones from.

Pmsl at LTB.

It's very strange - he wouldn't bat an eyelid if I wore a Westwood dress to Sainsbo's, but the necklace has confused him!

I post on S+B a lot and have never 'tittered' at somebody wearing clothing that is not straight off a catwalk. Nobody on MNVogue does either. Fashion should be first and foremost confidence building and then appropriate for life. We always welcome newbies and tailor advice and comments accordingly. I wouldn't want any lurkers to feel they couldn't come out because of what has been said about us here.

It's funny, but the older I get, the vainer I get.

So in my teens and twenties, I never gave a flying fuck. Bought clothes when I ran out, never EVER wore make-up, thought that hair-dying was for shallow women, never went to the hairdresser etc

The same theme continued into my mid-thirties, then I hit that point where women become invisible. So a little bit more care with the clothes. Not to excess because I hate shopping.

In my forties now, and I dye my hair and regularly apply make-up. I spend a lot on clothes, but always in a couple of shops every three months or so because I still hate shopping. I've had my colours done. I believe that I dress age appropriately and I don't believe that I am vain.

Sometimes this stuff comes down to money. If it were some kind of choice between a school trip for the DCs or make-up for me, then the school trip for the DCs would win, hands down, no contest. But because we are not cash-strapped, I feel a little bit of help towards me dealing with ageing is not a bad thing.

mignonette, I'm sure you haven't, but I've seen it several times on S&B, and one thread in particular I remember got quite nasty and made several people feel really bad about themselves.

I don't go on S&B enough to make generalisations, but I seem to have come accross something like that most times I have ventured there! Bad luck, maybe.

I agree that fashion should be confidence building, but I think there are some people who take that logic to extremes and somehow end up with the belief that anyone who doesn't follow fashion (or a few accepted non-fashiony looks) must therefore be in dire emotional NEED of confidence building (read - a makeover).

I'm certainly seeing the good side of S&B in this thread though!