How do you give yourself permission to look good?

[BabCNesbitt]

This isn't for the women who've always invested in their appearance and for whom taking care of their looks is as automatic as looking after their health - who've never questioned whether it's OK to spend money on clothes, skincare, etc.

It's for women like me who perhaps grew up with mothers who thought make-up was for vain women who clearly didn't put enough food on the table for their kids.

Or maybe you grew up with a version of feminism that disdained make-up, but even though you don't necessarily hold to that you still feel a bit guilty about being interested in it.

Or you've just internalised the idea that spending money on yourself - on decent clothes that will last, on skincare that isn't 2.99 from Superdrug, on makeup from department stores rather than the supermarket - is inappropriate now you're a mum.

How do you get over that guilt? If you have, how did you do it - what did you tell yourself? And if you haven't, why not?

(And actually, if you've never felt any guilt about it, why do you think that is?)

Some really interesting comments here. I agree that we are influenced by our mother's attitudes, though having said that I'm often at how much my DD spends on clothes.

But she has no commitments (other than rent, car & utilities), has a good job and enough disposable income to do what she wants with it - I suppose I envy her attitude a little as I still baulk at buying expensive clothes, even though I know it's the sensible thing to do, especially now I'm in my 50s, and know that better quality things make me look better.

My ex was always very 'careful' with money although we had plenty, so it's a novelty to go shopping with DH now and, if I can't decide between a couple of dresses, just says 'Well, get them both'. I'm gradually learning that I'm 'allowed' to spend money on myself without having to justify it to anyone.

I struggle with this as I was raised in a strictly religious household, being taught that spending too much time on one's appearance was sinful vanity. Anything more than the bare minimum of personal hygiene and the most subtle make up was considered borderline slutty. Added to this was the fact that we were so skint that all our clothes were 2nd / 3rd / 4th hand, we wore what came closest to fitting us at the time.

So I grew up thoroughly brushing my very curly hair, which just made it stick out like a giant frizzy ball of split ends, wearing desperately unflattering "modest and decent" skirts with the hem somewhere around my calf (mum's rule was the hem must be no higher than 4" below my knee), and with no clue how to apply make up or put together an outfit.

For these reasons, I hate shopping for clothes. I rarely see anything I actually like, and when I do, if it's in a cheap shop it's poorly made, and if it's in an expensive shop, I balk at the price. And I'm aware that paying more does not necessarily guarantee quality, as a friend who used to shop at Karen Millen demonstrated when she had to take 50% of her purchases back for repairs when it came unstitched, etc.

This is all a very long-winded way of saying I don't give myself permission to look good - I'm used to looking shit and have no idea how to change it. I'd rather look shit because I haven't tried, than because I've tried and got it hopelessly wrong, and ended up looking desperate and tragic.

MrsPennyapple I think it is interesting because it was definitely religious undertones that influenced my mother and me. I also ended up getting very puritan about ethical and green living for a while. Now I have to try not to get puritan about money.

It is really NOT about money. I buy cheap clothes and get quite a lot of clothes second hand from a friend. I buy quite plain stuff, I don't enjoy shopping. I don't consider myself vain (?). But I don't think I look bad - I know what suits me and have just tried to educate myself a bit on some tricks of the trade, so to speak.

For frizz, there are some very cheap products that work beautifully, and take seconds to apply. I picked up about two tips from Trinny and Susannah, and my mum spent my childhood talking about her 'colours' (funny, I just remembered that - somewhat at odds with the overall picture) so I know roughly what colours suit me. I have found a boring style and stick to it, so I don't end up with lots of tat in my wardrobe.

Once these things are part of a new routine it takes up no mental space, it is like cutting your nails.

My mother didn't wear much make-up and wasn't particularly glamorous - but she did always have a good face cream on the go and always had her legs waxed regularly and a facial whenever she got a chance (not often: she had 5 kids!). She was all about the subtle upkeep that makes you feel a bit in control and less like a dishrag. However, she was quite strict with us girls and actively discouraged any kind of 'pink' dressing up or make-up too early.

Despite this I craved dressing up and make-up, and snuck eyeliner etc. into school! I think a lot of this was because I was very visual and on an aesthetic level I saw the 'flaws' in my own appearance and wanted to hide or window-dress them. As a teen I was very into clothes (although didn't have much money to buy them) and wore too much make-up.

Now, at 30, I feel pretty good about where I am. I don't wear make-up every day, and I buy whatever I want for myself, within reason. I've made enough mistakes in the past and spent money on silly things, but this is OK - it's always going to happen a little bit and it's just all about minimising costly mistakes. I feel in control of myself when I've planned my outfit. I've been caught out often enough feeling and looking like crap because I haven't planned out what I'm going to wear. I spend my own money, earned by me, on clothes and cosmetics. It doesn't define me, but I do take an interest in it, and make no apologies for this. It's just a habit, a hobby, that helps get me through the day, and it doesn't make me less of a feminist.

My skincare is dead cheap though: coconut oil as a cleanser and Nivea face cream for a fiver. They work for me, waaaaay better than my mother's pricey potions. We have different kinds of skin.

I started changing one thing at a time....hair then a bit of make up, hanging out on Style and Beauty helped too as I became more aware of what i liked so shopping wasn't as challenging. The money thing is easy - I get allocated the same spending money as dh, so even though I record my purchases for budgeting, any leftover budget from the year is rolled over and dh refuses to absorb it back into the main account.

Building I now have very short hair - I decided to cut it short a few years ago, and loved it. Then I decided I needed a change and grew it, and immediately my self-comfidence took a dive, as it looked rubbish. So I cut it short again, and I like it a lot better again, and it does suit me very short. On the flip side, I'm using a completely inappropriate styling product because I got a really good deal on a load of it, when I was growing my hair, and scrapping it would be a waste. (See, I just can't fight off this scrimping attitude, even when it does me no favours.)

I have started learning to make clothes, too. I can't help looking at the quality of what's in the shops, and thinking I could do better myself. At least then I'll be in charge of the workmanship and attention to detail. I can have the cut / style / length that suits me, rather than what's currently popular. I just need to figure out exactly what it is that suits me...

MrsP, I am using my husband's ten year old pot of hair wax. . But plan to put it in a dark cupboard after I get to the shops to buy the right thing. I might be able to throw it away as I am getting lots of inspiration from the minimalist thread.

my mother isn't high maintenance but is always clean, tidy and well dressed. I think she wears lipstick most days and more makeup for an evening out.

we are different people. I wear clothes until they fall apart (sometimes after!) because I have always hated clothes shopping, such a boring waste of time. It is so hard to find practical, comfortable clothing in my (normal) size and always has been. As shopping is to acquire things, not a recreation, this means clothes shopping is my definition of time wasting.

As a result my clothing spend is minimal. It's nothing to do with guilt which is an emotion no-one should ever feel unless they have committed a crime.

I rarely wear make up. Also boring and irritating. Can't stand the feel of lipstick.

what others do is up to them - but women who won't do things because heels are too high/makeup might run etc etc do irritate me.

I don't think it's about the money -as a family, we have decided to save most of our money, so we try to live on around half of DP's earning at the moment, but I enjoy the challenge of looking good on a budget. I've just started doing project 33 and found that actually I am wearing fewer than 33 items this summer, so I'm going to get a few accessories to jazz things up a bit.

I find that having spent money in the past on expensive brands of skincare and make-up, I know how to find cheap stuff that works as well for me, so my skincare and make-up are all cheap, but woek as well for me as more expensive brands.

The thing that I struggle with is time - before I had children my evenings and weekends were free. When I had babies, I had pretty much no free time at all, and what I did was spent on basic hygeine rather than grooming. Now, I generally have evenings free, but weekends are spent with the children, so the amount of time that I used to be able to spend on things like, exercise, grooming, and shopping is tiny compared to before, and that time also has to be used for all the other things I'm interested in (friends, cinema, theatre, reading, studying, going to a concert, sex etc) so things like painting my nails and filing my feet takes more time that I can really be bothered with.

I am the opposite, really. My mother is one the vainest people I know. Takes 3 hours to do her hair and make up in the morning and literally cannot leave the house without doing so. Then spends another 2 hours taking it all off and applying a zillion anti ageing wotsits every night. I am honestly not exaggerating when I say that as a minimum half her waking time is spent every day directly on her apperance. Much of the remaining time is spent buying insane quantities of clothes (they fill about 3 rooms of her house) and even more time returning lots of them. It severely impedes her life. She's also incredibly shallow and judgy and bitchy about others and their appearance. She started talking about plucking my eyebrows when I was about 10, and spent years 'offering' me a nose job as my 16th birthday present. I've never been overly fond of my nose, but never ever ever wanted to change it. She also made me anorexic after years of telling me I was podgy (I've never been above 8 stone.)

I started mimicking some of her behaviour, though, and spent several years also unable to bear the sight of myself without a certain amount of makeup, to a really unhealthy degree. Iweaned myself off, felt so much happier, and at that point gave myself permission to NOT make a huge effort with my appearance. I don't do much to my hair, never wear make up, wear what to many people would be very dull, boring, practical clothes. I wear a limited palatte of clothes I know suit me, and I feel comfy in and that mix and match well as I hate having lots of stuff I don't wear much. I hate shopping and like very classic things that don't date and I can keep for years. Possibly rather a case of one extreme to another, but I feel very content. Most of the time when I look in the mirror I think I look fairly nice, which is what matters. Other people may disagree!

2 things to add:my granny had a controlling revolting husband who wouldnt "let" her spend anything on herself and she loved to see me dressed up etc because it told her I was in a happy relationship.

I also vowed when I became a parent that my dcs would never be embarrassed by my appearance.

It's normal to me. I live in Moscow, so it would be weird not to make at least some effort. But I never understood that line of thought that there is something vain or ridiculous about putting a comb through your hair and wearing clean clothes and putting on some foundation if it makes your skin look better.

I come from quite a scummy part of New Zealand where many of the people are of indeterminate gender because of their size and their uniform of ill-fitting grey or black tracksuits. Thinking back, I started wearing makeup out of a desire not to look like them. Over time, I came to appreciate how much better it makes me look and now I'm a bit older (nearing 30) I like how yoofening it is.

That said, applying three layers of nail polish and breastfeeding a constantly hungry newborn who only sleeps in your arms don't go together. I DO get women who say "I couldn't shower today because the baby cried too much" because that happened to me a lot. Either you're able to stomach the screaming and get on with it or you're not- and I wasn't. I just took the view that it would all calm down eventually and it did.

I am proud/vain. I didn't have much as a young child but my mum always made the most of what we had and put a slick of lippy on before she went out. As I got older, there situation improved and she would have her hair done regularly and buy more for herself. It used to upset me that she thought she had to ask my dad first though, (he always said 'yes, you don't need to ask!' BTW).

My grandma grew up in abject poverty but saved for a good coat and bought nice things from charity shops. She was very proud and would hate to be pitied or thought poor.

I want my children to see me as a person and not just their mum. My DS (6) compliments me on my clothes and tells me 'that's a pretty blouse' etc but he also tells me I'm clever and discusses things with me.

I don't spend a lot but I like to look 'together.' I like clothes shopping, I like putting an outfit together and I like to try something new.

I don't want my DCs to be embarassed by my appearance. I know many of my friends would cringe when their parents picked them up wearing scruffy/old/mis-matched clothes. That might make them shallow but most kids don't want attention directed at them for things like that.

I'm not very attractive but I make an effort to feel more comfortable in my own skin.
My hair is atrocious though!

many of the people are of indeterminate gender because of their [appearance] - Isn't it funny, Falcon, that this is undesirable to you but sounds great to me! I love fashion, and understand it, but for me it has nothing at all to do with advertising gender. Playing with 'gender' is an enduring fascination in fashion/style circles ... the very last thing I ask myself about a style choice is "Do I look 'feminine'?" It never occurs, mostly because I know I am female iyswim.

Funny how we vary, innit.

To me it's not about money or anything like that. It's more about how I am feeling about myself. I love make up, jewellery etc. but when I feel fat/unattractive etc I stop bothering about it all. I wear loose,baggy crap clothes, shove my hair up and wear minimal make up.
I need to give myself permission to buy clothes, dress up and feel attractive, even when I am overweight. At the moment I am finding this hard. Taking pleasure in my appearance etc seems to be linked to being slim. I wish I could enjoy it all now,rather than waiting for the day I'm slim enough to be worthy of it.

Interesting thread

My problem seems to be allowing myself permission to spend time rather than money on myself.

I have shortish hair and bad skin so do need hair washed and make up on every morning but I feel this brings me upto a normal looking level rather than a good looking level.

I'm terrible for going through stages of buying a few nice bits of clothes but then deciding as they are nice I don't want to wear them for everyday use or thinking what's the point of looking nice one day when I will look shit in my old clothes the next.

I feel guilty about drying and styling my hair every morning as it takes a bit of time out of getting 4dc ready and who really cares what I look like anyway (well me but is that important?)

I'm constantly saying I will treat myself to more clothes once I've lost weight but its a vicious circle as I feel fat and frumpy so eat so can't lose weight so am stuck in clothes I'm not happy with.

Dh constantly tells me to spend less on the dc and more on myself but I control all our finances so know its not always that easy.

I am trying to change though, have sorted through my wardrobe and bought a few key peices, hopefully if I start to feel better about myself it will spur me on with the weight loss, I love clothes, make up, bags and pretty things but don't feel I deserve all that nice stuff while looking like this.

Sorry about the big ramble but its nice to get it all down suppose I think only the slimmer me deserves to try to look nice.

Yournotfat had said exactly how I feel but in 1000 less words

Yes indeed, garlicagain, it's interesting. However, I made a mistake- I meant sex, not gender. I don't mean "pretty androgenous trendy Gok Wan sort" but more of it "so potato-like it's unclear which way up they are" sort of thing. Which sounds bitchier than intended: it's just a pretty factual description of many of the (mostly pleasant) people I grew up amongst.

StupidFlanders
I also vowed when I became a parent that my dcs would never be embarrassed by my appearance.

I agree with that 100%. That's what made me take up exercise.

This is such an interesting and eye opening thread

I don't give myself permission to look good most of the time, and have spent some time today after find this thread pondering why.

There's a few factors. I come from a normal working class family, not poor, but not wealthy either. My mother always looked nice, was/is slim and pretty and chose clothes which suited her, but didn't wear (or really need) much make up, wasn't particularly fashion concious and spending on herself was definately bottom of the list- she would rather spend money on us, and as a perceptive eldest child I was aware of this.

I was painfully shy as a child and have always and still struggle with confidence. I hate how this is going to sound so bear with me... I have always been slim and have naturally very blonde straight hair, light blue eyes and strangers/family/classmates etc often commented on my looks saying I was pretty etc. It drew attention to me and as an introverted shy little thing I hated it. I've never had a great sense of style anyway, but as a child I wanted to look cool but not too nice so as not to stand out. My mum did her best bless her, but shopping with me was a nightmare as I never really knew what I wanted (I never confessed to her I was worried about looking too nice!). 'She would occasionally say things like 'it's such a shame, you would've looked lovely in that' if I rejected something, which although meant kindly, made me feel worse. My teenage years were similar, wanting to fit in, but found it hard to do so, and wore minimal make up and 'boring' clothes to ward off attention. I always worried that if I went 'all out' to look my best, a) I was bound to get attention/compliments I wasn't able to cope with, b) who am I to be strutting around like I deserve to be there and c) I might get it wrong and make a fool of myself. God this paragraph sounds awful, but I hope some of you get what I mean.

By my early 20s, I had learned a bit of simple style, coping strategies for my low self esteem and I had a job. In those few years, I did spend more time on myself and enjoyed buying new clothes. Usually quite cheap (New look H&M etc), but if I loved something a bit more £, I would buy it. I remember the day I spent £65 on a smart/casual dress because I loved it and I was going out with my bf for dinner somewhere naice that night- I think that was the last time I spent over £30 on myself in one go!

Now I am a SAHM and I'm back to old habits, dithering over cheap t shirts and jeans, trying to convince myself that they are either affordable, necessary, or not too frumpy. I find it hard to spend money on myself, or either much time now I have DD to look after and am not earning (and still don't have the easy sense of style many others seem to). I've not even bought the new bras I rashly promised myself I could have when I finished feeding DD, as six months have passed, I've no idea of my true size and my old ones 'will do' .

My DH is wonderful and will always tell me to buy what I want (within reason) and that I look nice. Problem is, he tells me I look nice when I know I probably don't (he has no style either!) and tells me I look as beautiful in my scruffs as when I've spent an hour trying to dress up- a lovely sentiment and I love him for it, but it doesn't really give me an incentive to bother really.

I really wish I could be one of those effortlessly stylish put together women, but I'm just not.

I realise this has turned into a bit of an essay, sorry So interesting to read all the other points of view though to convince myself I'm not just lazy!

Cockadoodle the dithering! Yes! I don't want to get above myself either. Not that I'm all that anyway.

I'm so sick of my own indecisiveness, it paralyses me. And I'd rather think about something else. Hence finding a few things that look okay and sticking with that style.

Ooh, I forgot to add. At school, I unsurprisingly wasn't part of the 'cool crowd' and didn't have hoards of friends. I did have 2 best friends though, both of whom were overweight and one of which had very low self esteem herself. I was a good friend to them (I still am to one), but occasionally they both felt compelled to point out that I couldn't possibly understand (in a typically dramatic teenage manner) how they were feeling (about issues not to do with weight/looks) because I was lucky and things were different for them. Then gave each other knowing looks. It was very hurtful, and made me feel like all the support I had given one of them (v serious family issues) was meaningless because I had the audacity not to be overweight and to have a stable homelife. My qualities as a person didn't matter.

Does that make sense? I'll stop waffling now.

tells me I look as beautiful in my scruffs as when I've spent an hour trying to dress up

Have you not thought this may be true? Beauty is an intrinsic thing - the presentation is an enhancement, window-dressing, advertising. As CoTa wrote, you can choose which aspects of your appearance you want to 'advertise' at a particular time, and how you wish to influence people's perceptions of you. The semiotics of fashion is a whole study on its own :)

Woozle, that must have been horrible for you growing up! Congrats on turning out so well-balanced despite your mum!

building... dithering is the one thing I really do excel at- doesn't it drive you bonkers!?